Saw a stage of this rally on Speed TV yesterday. There are a series of great looking diesels that are set up like Unimogs and they were tearing it up. Does anyone know how to find out more about these trucks and the engineering? Very interesting to see them tear up the beach with full air like my Big Green- Who wants to run this with an ISB Dodge? Sounds like fun if you have a lot of time and a lot of money.
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Paris-Dakar Diesels
- Thread starter mimprevento
- Start Date
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Hummers
I believe a couple years ago there were a couple ISB fitted Hummers in that race. Details were hard to find, however they later fitted the ISB's with "P" pumps to get more rpm and theoretically more reliability.
I think a Hummin Cummins Hummer would be just the ticket
What I'd REALLY like to see is a mid engine, 400 hp, twin turboed 4BT in a light tube chassis. With some trick suspension that would be a blast. It would be all wheel drive of course. Then we'd show those renaultfiatmasquerattimitsusheeti's a thing or twoOo.
I believe a couple years ago there were a couple ISB fitted Hummers in that race. Details were hard to find, however they later fitted the ISB's with "P" pumps to get more rpm and theoretically more reliability.
I think a Hummin Cummins Hummer would be just the ticket
What I'd REALLY like to see is a mid engine, 400 hp, twin turboed 4BT in a light tube chassis. With some trick suspension that would be a blast. It would be all wheel drive of course. Then we'd show those renaultfiatmasquerattimitsusheeti's a thing or twoOo.
PAris-Dakar
I did a little internet checking- it looks like the Japanese Mitsu/Hino/Isuzu and Deutz diesels own this thing- I cannot believe there is not more American factory interest- the Japanese and European manufacturers really get into this thing beause it is such a great test ground and advertisement for product. Maybe I will write Cummins and Dodge for fun and see what response I get.
I did a little internet checking- it looks like the Japanese Mitsu/Hino/Isuzu and Deutz diesels own this thing- I cannot believe there is not more American factory interest- the Japanese and European manufacturers really get into this thing beause it is such a great test ground and advertisement for product. Maybe I will write Cummins and Dodge for fun and see what response I get.
The wifes car, Mitsubishi Montero, took 9 out of the top ten finnishers in 2002. And I think it is now at 7 straight first place finnishes.
And to think-- she thinks I wanted to get it for the 3rd row fold down seeting.
The king of the trucks in the P-K is the TATRA.
Be careful of what you whish for, the Dodge entry might have IFS and aluminum heads. Then what would you bash?
And to think-- she thinks I wanted to get it for the 3rd row fold down seeting.
The king of the trucks in the P-K is the TATRA.
Be careful of what you whish for, the Dodge entry might have IFS and aluminum heads. Then what would you bash?
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Come Again?
QUOTE:
MABurns said-
"Be careful of what you whish for, the Dodge entry might have IFS and aluminum heads. Then what would you bash?"
Dude, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder. What's your problem? Someone gettin' in your face? Who on this topic is bothering you? You sarcastic POS!
QUOTE:
MABurns said-
"Be careful of what you whish for, the Dodge entry might have IFS and aluminum heads. Then what would you bash?"
Dude, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder. What's your problem? Someone gettin' in your face? Who on this topic is bothering you? You sarcastic POS!
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Wow, HVAC who has the attititude here?
I am a POS for having an opinion?
I was making a statement of fact. The Dodge CTD is not made for high reving, high speed, long suspension travel off road racing. Is it ?
I always thought its was designed for heavy duty (towing and hauling) low reving high torque applications. And it does a fine job of that.
Lots of IFS bashing on the TDR (for some it is with good reason). And I do recall reading a thread or two bashing the Duramax's melt and re-use heads.
I just don't think everyone wants or needs an off road race car. That was why I made a comment on being careful on stuffing the suggestion box at DC.
You might want to switch to decaf... ... . that is sarcasm.
I am a POS for having an opinion?
I was making a statement of fact. The Dodge CTD is not made for high reving, high speed, long suspension travel off road racing. Is it ?
I always thought its was designed for heavy duty (towing and hauling) low reving high torque applications. And it does a fine job of that.
Lots of IFS bashing on the TDR (for some it is with good reason). And I do recall reading a thread or two bashing the Duramax's melt and re-use heads.
I just don't think everyone wants or needs an off road race car. That was why I made a comment on being careful on stuffing the suggestion box at DC.
You might want to switch to decaf... ... . that is sarcasm.
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Diesels- Paris to Dakar
I certainly didn't see a Duramax or a CTD but BMW is running a straight six twin turbo entry in the X-5- Chevy had a 2wd pickup I believe but it was a gasser. I am not sure what is powering the Japanese or Eastern Bloc entries. I do not think the high-revving is the issue I believe it is fuel and boost and the CTD could easily be juiced to handle it. I need to learn more because for some reason diesels seem to be the preferred engine in this grueling race. That despite the fact that they are clearly more fussy about dirt and dust than gassers.
I certainly didn't see a Duramax or a CTD but BMW is running a straight six twin turbo entry in the X-5- Chevy had a 2wd pickup I believe but it was a gasser. I am not sure what is powering the Japanese or Eastern Bloc entries. I do not think the high-revving is the issue I believe it is fuel and boost and the CTD could easily be juiced to handle it. I need to learn more because for some reason diesels seem to be the preferred engine in this grueling race. That despite the fact that they are clearly more fussy about dirt and dust than gassers.
Saw the program again and for sure there are diesels and a lot of them. I sure would like to see DC get a CTD into this race. I am sure the Germans know a lot about how to go about it as it is in their area of the world. By the way, I don't recall any diesels running in the Baja 1000 in the old days, any now.
how about baja?
Was reading over some of these posts - cool to see interest in Paris-Dakar. For the record I own a custom fabrication company in San Diego - we've turned several diesel Rams into serious "prerunners" (vehicles used to drive the SCORE race courses in Mexico) that have long travel suspension and can absolutely fly over the gnarliest terrain on earth - BAJA. We've actually been talking about putting together a real class 8 race truck based on the Ram diesel platform. In one of the posts above a guy said that the truck was designed for something specific - like towing - well that's probably true - and those Paris-Dakar race vehicles started out as purpose-built production vehicles as well. We've found that despite the weight of this truck, the general design is so good that with a little solid R and D you can use it to tow your 20 foot trailer (containing your race car and gear) to Mexico, then prerun the Baja 1000 race course with your Dodge hauler, then race and only go about 20% faster (in most cases) - in your $250,000 race car! Next month we're releasing our bolt-on long-travel system for the 99-03 4x4. Stay tuned! It's something like nothing you've seen before!
Was reading over some of these posts - cool to see interest in Paris-Dakar. For the record I own a custom fabrication company in San Diego - we've turned several diesel Rams into serious "prerunners" (vehicles used to drive the SCORE race courses in Mexico) that have long travel suspension and can absolutely fly over the gnarliest terrain on earth - BAJA. We've actually been talking about putting together a real class 8 race truck based on the Ram diesel platform. In one of the posts above a guy said that the truck was designed for something specific - like towing - well that's probably true - and those Paris-Dakar race vehicles started out as purpose-built production vehicles as well. We've found that despite the weight of this truck, the general design is so good that with a little solid R and D you can use it to tow your 20 foot trailer (containing your race car and gear) to Mexico, then prerun the Baja 1000 race course with your Dodge hauler, then race and only go about 20% faster (in most cases) - in your $250,000 race car! Next month we're releasing our bolt-on long-travel system for the 99-03 4x4. Stay tuned! It's something like nothing you've seen before!
Re: how about baja?
What's different about the suspension between 94-98 and 99-02?
What's different about the suspension between 94-98 and 99-02?
Don't have a website at this time - I've got lots of photos of our work, but I can't currently post anything because we're not public with our suspension system yet. If I have to demonstrate what we're producing to vendors etc. I have them sign non-disclosure agreements. It's just to protect our 75,000 dollar RandD investment during the "quiet period. " I can't really have everyone in TDR sign those forms, so I've just got to wait a bit. In two to three weeks we'll be on the market and I'll post photos and start advertizing. Believe me, I WANT TO SHOW YOU GUYS! I've just got to wait a bit.
I will, however, describe what we're doing. My company has designed parts that allow one to directly bolt on the "King" shock absorber to the front and rear of late model Dodge Ram 2500 and 3500 pickups. The "King" shock has a 2. 5 inch diameter body, a nitrogen-charged remote reservoir and complex shim-over-piston valving that is both position and speed sensitive. The shock rides on heim joints at both ends and is fully rebuildable and revalveable to customer tastes. These shocks are the exact shocks used by all the winning Baja race teams for the last several years. We use a special CNC machined part made from 6061 aircraft grade aluminum to mount the front shocks. It only requires minor drilling of the spring bucket. We also incoporate a computer-designed, progressive rate spring that increases front ariculation (wheel travel) by 60%. The rear shocks ride on their heims mounted with the piggy-back reservoirs facing up from the axle. Our '03 test vehicle runs 37" MTR's, has 8" of travel in front and 10" in the rear. It absolutely rips in the dirt and floats down the highway!
You can check out the dampers at at www.kingshocks.com. My company is called T. Rex Engineering and we've been working with King on this particular system for about six months. At this point, we are exclusively Dodge diesel.
I say that our system is only for the 99-03 because we've only worked out the valving and clearance issues for these models. We valve shocks specifically for 2500 and 3500 and the 03's are totally different in terms of mass centralization etc. It takes time to get it just right. I haven't had the chance to go back farther to test if things line up correctly on the earlier models. Steering geometry, shock mounting points etc, might not be the same, so I don't want to guarantee that our system will work on every Dodge with a solid front axle. I'm not sure at this point. We're still testing. But it is likely that our system will eventually bolt right on to every 4x4 back to '94.
Hope this helps answer some questions, sorry for being so vague. I'll get pictures posted in a couple of weeks.
Kent Kroeker
T. Rex Engineering
I will, however, describe what we're doing. My company has designed parts that allow one to directly bolt on the "King" shock absorber to the front and rear of late model Dodge Ram 2500 and 3500 pickups. The "King" shock has a 2. 5 inch diameter body, a nitrogen-charged remote reservoir and complex shim-over-piston valving that is both position and speed sensitive. The shock rides on heim joints at both ends and is fully rebuildable and revalveable to customer tastes. These shocks are the exact shocks used by all the winning Baja race teams for the last several years. We use a special CNC machined part made from 6061 aircraft grade aluminum to mount the front shocks. It only requires minor drilling of the spring bucket. We also incoporate a computer-designed, progressive rate spring that increases front ariculation (wheel travel) by 60%. The rear shocks ride on their heims mounted with the piggy-back reservoirs facing up from the axle. Our '03 test vehicle runs 37" MTR's, has 8" of travel in front and 10" in the rear. It absolutely rips in the dirt and floats down the highway!
You can check out the dampers at at www.kingshocks.com. My company is called T. Rex Engineering and we've been working with King on this particular system for about six months. At this point, we are exclusively Dodge diesel.
I say that our system is only for the 99-03 because we've only worked out the valving and clearance issues for these models. We valve shocks specifically for 2500 and 3500 and the 03's are totally different in terms of mass centralization etc. It takes time to get it just right. I haven't had the chance to go back farther to test if things line up correctly on the earlier models. Steering geometry, shock mounting points etc, might not be the same, so I don't want to guarantee that our system will work on every Dodge with a solid front axle. I'm not sure at this point. We're still testing. But it is likely that our system will eventually bolt right on to every 4x4 back to '94.
Hope this helps answer some questions, sorry for being so vague. I'll get pictures posted in a couple of weeks.
Kent Kroeker
T. Rex Engineering
That's right, Kings. They're the best. Every racer knows that. And they work great on this truck. They make the truck really fun to drive off road. We tried Sway-Away, Fox and even Bilstein and will only use Kings for our production. That Cummins engine was developed without price in mind and so was the King shock - so we're sticking with it. Aside from unsurpassed performance, our system looks cool too...
Kent,
Very glad to hear someone is finally giving the Ram/Cummins the suspension it deserves. While most TDR folks have been turning up the heat in the mighty Cummins, some of us have been working on suspension mods to get rid of the antique suspension and kidney busting ride.
What about the 5" lift blocks that cause the drive-line busting spring hop in the rear? Does your system get rid of them? How "street-able" is the system? What about brake lines, track bar length and alignment issues?
Very glad to hear someone is finally giving the Ram/Cummins the suspension it deserves. While most TDR folks have been turning up the heat in the mighty Cummins, some of us have been working on suspension mods to get rid of the antique suspension and kidney busting ride.
What about the 5" lift blocks that cause the drive-line busting spring hop in the rear? Does your system get rid of them? How "street-able" is the system? What about brake lines, track bar length and alignment issues?
I agree the blocks are a stupid design, the axle hop drives me nuts especially trying to power through deep snow or sand. Instead of using traction bars I'd rather get replacement 4" lift springs, eliminate the blocks and use heavier u-bolts. This would minimize (maybe eliminate) axle hop and lower the rear a bit to match the front ride height as a bonus.
Gents,
Our system doesn't use lift blocks anywhere. Lift blocks are ridiculous and unsafe - I can remember in the 70's when people used them on the _front_! Yikes! All we do is replace the front springs with our spring and change the shocks. The whole idea behind the "lift kits" of the past was to provide enough clearance for larger diameter tires. Suspension was so low-tech that the large pneumatic tire was the only way to enable the truck to roll over large obstacles and provide ground clearance for the diffs etc. The problem is that "lifting" a truck raises the CG so the vehicle feels "tippy" and huge tires and wheels create a lot of what suspension guys call "unsprung weight" - that is weight that can't be damped by suspension because it rides below the spring and shocks. A huge tire and wheel set up also makes for a lot of rolling mass and inertia that the brakes have to overcome. Bearings, brake pads, gears, clutches and all driveline and steering components wear out very quickly with huge tires and wheels. For this big truck, the best combo for Baja is the 37x12. 50x17 size - which is pretty big - but not so big that it causes driveline component problems. We have to cut a bit of the front rear fenderwells and use a small spacer on the steering knuckle to eliminate rub. We easily run 35x12. 50x17's with no mods at all. Our system only raises the front of the truck 3 inches - the truck sits level and looks really nice. We use the stock rear springs. What makes the suspension work so well is the combination of the progressive front spring and the progressive dampening of the shocks. Imagine the nastiest washboard road you've ever seen - our Rams fly over that stuff. Ever see a guy with a huge "lifted" truck slow way down for a speed bump in a parking lot? The long shackles, stiff springs, lift blocks and spring spacers don't let his suspension move. All that stuff is just a waste of money - unless the buyer thinks it looks spectacular or something. Our suspension moves. At the correct speeds. Meaning when you go over a speed bump slowly, the axle moves up, then drops down the back side. The truck stays level. As you move faster the hydraulics of the shock tighten up on the compression side, then snap down faster on the rebound side - it's all automatic. Many roads in Baja are like endless, continuous parking lot speed bumps. We've tuned our system to allow the truck to float over this stuff or "plane out" as racers call it. The axles move, the truck body stays level while you sip a soda and listen to a CD with the air on. The ride on the street is kind of, uh, well, I hate to use this word but it feels "fluffy" or "floaty. " In the dirt it's smooth and controlled. We use all the stock control arms and bushings. We don't have to use a dropped pitman arm or anything weird. Just springs and shocks - no axle hop from the rear - the shocks prevent that by the good factory design using leveraged mounting points and fore-aft shock opposition. No bump-steer either - all the front suspension angles remain within the factory geometric parameters. I mean, I've got thee aerospace engineers on my team - and my business partner who designed the front shock mounts actually designed components for the Space Shuttle - these guys have all told me that you can't out think the factory. The factory has 50 guys working 8 hour days just designing one part. Joe Schmo's suspension shop isn't going to fab something up, then paint it red or blue and call it "better. " And that's not what we do. WE DON'T MESS WITH THE SOLID DODGE DESIGN. All we do is modernize component quality - that is, we produce parts that enable the truck to do something that the average consumer isn't willing to pay for from the factory - because the average consumer doesn't need to drive 500 miles of Mexican dirt road in a day. But there are weirdos out there like us here in San Diego who love to have the trickest performance stuff on the market, so we're making it. Imagine driving your truck like it's a full-on trophy truck. It's really fun. With our system you can do that.
Our system doesn't use lift blocks anywhere. Lift blocks are ridiculous and unsafe - I can remember in the 70's when people used them on the _front_! Yikes! All we do is replace the front springs with our spring and change the shocks. The whole idea behind the "lift kits" of the past was to provide enough clearance for larger diameter tires. Suspension was so low-tech that the large pneumatic tire was the only way to enable the truck to roll over large obstacles and provide ground clearance for the diffs etc. The problem is that "lifting" a truck raises the CG so the vehicle feels "tippy" and huge tires and wheels create a lot of what suspension guys call "unsprung weight" - that is weight that can't be damped by suspension because it rides below the spring and shocks. A huge tire and wheel set up also makes for a lot of rolling mass and inertia that the brakes have to overcome. Bearings, brake pads, gears, clutches and all driveline and steering components wear out very quickly with huge tires and wheels. For this big truck, the best combo for Baja is the 37x12. 50x17 size - which is pretty big - but not so big that it causes driveline component problems. We have to cut a bit of the front rear fenderwells and use a small spacer on the steering knuckle to eliminate rub. We easily run 35x12. 50x17's with no mods at all. Our system only raises the front of the truck 3 inches - the truck sits level and looks really nice. We use the stock rear springs. What makes the suspension work so well is the combination of the progressive front spring and the progressive dampening of the shocks. Imagine the nastiest washboard road you've ever seen - our Rams fly over that stuff. Ever see a guy with a huge "lifted" truck slow way down for a speed bump in a parking lot? The long shackles, stiff springs, lift blocks and spring spacers don't let his suspension move. All that stuff is just a waste of money - unless the buyer thinks it looks spectacular or something. Our suspension moves. At the correct speeds. Meaning when you go over a speed bump slowly, the axle moves up, then drops down the back side. The truck stays level. As you move faster the hydraulics of the shock tighten up on the compression side, then snap down faster on the rebound side - it's all automatic. Many roads in Baja are like endless, continuous parking lot speed bumps. We've tuned our system to allow the truck to float over this stuff or "plane out" as racers call it. The axles move, the truck body stays level while you sip a soda and listen to a CD with the air on. The ride on the street is kind of, uh, well, I hate to use this word but it feels "fluffy" or "floaty. " In the dirt it's smooth and controlled. We use all the stock control arms and bushings. We don't have to use a dropped pitman arm or anything weird. Just springs and shocks - no axle hop from the rear - the shocks prevent that by the good factory design using leveraged mounting points and fore-aft shock opposition. No bump-steer either - all the front suspension angles remain within the factory geometric parameters. I mean, I've got thee aerospace engineers on my team - and my business partner who designed the front shock mounts actually designed components for the Space Shuttle - these guys have all told me that you can't out think the factory. The factory has 50 guys working 8 hour days just designing one part. Joe Schmo's suspension shop isn't going to fab something up, then paint it red or blue and call it "better. " And that's not what we do. WE DON'T MESS WITH THE SOLID DODGE DESIGN. All we do is modernize component quality - that is, we produce parts that enable the truck to do something that the average consumer isn't willing to pay for from the factory - because the average consumer doesn't need to drive 500 miles of Mexican dirt road in a day. But there are weirdos out there like us here in San Diego who love to have the trickest performance stuff on the market, so we're making it. Imagine driving your truck like it's a full-on trophy truck. It's really fun. With our system you can do that.
do you need a 96 hot rod test truck
We've tested our system on Rams back to '99 - so yes, you bet we're looking to outfit a '96 - it's my guess that we'll be able to go back to '94 with no problem, but I can't be sure until we try it out on those models.
If you're really interested I'll have you sign and fax me a non-disclosure agreement, then I'll send you some photos of what we do.
By the way, I'm currently working with Weld Racing's director of marketing - trying to get them to produce a 17x8. 5" wheel for this truck that emulates as closely as possible the large backspace and positive offset of the OE Dodge wheel. Retaining OE wheel dimensions is another way to prevent bump steer and other strange driveline phenomena resulting from "backyard engineering" mods. So far they've sent me two sizes for testing - real beauties - one-piece forged and about half the weight of the stock wheel and much lighter than the Alcoa + the Weld wheel has a 3500 lb. weight rating. Cool stuff.
If you're really interested I'll have you sign and fax me a non-disclosure agreement, then I'll send you some photos of what we do.
By the way, I'm currently working with Weld Racing's director of marketing - trying to get them to produce a 17x8. 5" wheel for this truck that emulates as closely as possible the large backspace and positive offset of the OE Dodge wheel. Retaining OE wheel dimensions is another way to prevent bump steer and other strange driveline phenomena resulting from "backyard engineering" mods. So far they've sent me two sizes for testing - real beauties - one-piece forged and about half the weight of the stock wheel and much lighter than the Alcoa + the Weld wheel has a 3500 lb. weight rating. Cool stuff.
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
Advertising
