Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Performance Delivery Valve Copper Washer Install

[MMcCallie]

I recently had a local garage install a set of CPP Hot Street Delivery Valves, delivery valve holders, and full lines. Ever since my engine has run poorly. For over a month it had a drastic lope that shook so hard it broke multiple starters, starter bolts, an oil pressure sending unit and something else I can't recall.

After a month the lope reduced in intensity and became only noticeable under 1,000 RPMs. After another couple of months it smoothed a little more to being more drivable but is still very noticeable. I have also been experiencing increased smoke, reduced fuel economy, and an increase of EGTs but hundreds of degrees so that even driving empty up hill it is not possible to maintain 60 mph without exceeding 1,250 degrees.

AFC tuning reduced smoke but not EGTs and decreased power to much lower than it was before the install. Also seeing far less boost and my AirDog II 200 GPH drops to 0.5 psi when passing other vehicles on the highway at over 1,500 degrees and barely getting into the 30-40 psi boost range. I used to see over 50 psi in the 1,200-1,300 degree range. I have found no boost or fuel leaks and there have been no other changes to the engine since other than dialing back the star wheel.

CPP tells me that the shop should have installed the copper washers. The shop insists that because my 913 pump is from a 1997 truck and didn't come with washers that they were not supposed to install them. CPP claims they are there to seal but the listing on their website describes them as a shim. I've had a very hard time getting detailed support from CPP.

From what I've read online most '96-'98 trucks did not come with washers and do not need them when swapping DVs. Can someone more experienced with performance delivery valves comment on whether or not having the washers installed on a late model injector pump will make any difference?

After several thousand miles of driving this way the truck still shakes even once warm at any RPM under 1,000 and is still a little rough above that RPM. CPP also suggested I advance my timing from 17.5 degrees to 24 based on my engine mods but they didn't comment as to whether or not that will affect idle quality. Does engine timing have anything to do with idle quality on a P7100 12 valve?

 

[mfurrh55]

well considering the way it's acting, i think i would install them anyway and see how it performs, from what your describing it isn't worth driving as it is, Monte

 

[GAmes]

I'm sure the is certified Bosch shop in the St. Louis area. Obviously the shop screwed up the install. I'd take it to a pro.

 

[MMcCallie]

CPP technical support was confusing on the phone. I asked if it is true that not every year Cummins with a Bosch P7100 needs the washers with their Hot Street Delivery Valve kit. He at first said that was correct. Then he changed his mind and insisted that the washers have to be installed on every year and model P7100 12 valve because they function as a seal. He stated that's why they include washers with every kit they sell.

The shop that first installed refused to call CPP or to even consider they could have made an error. They refused to work on my truck ever again and cancelled our appointment to have the timing advanced to 24 degrees that day, as also recommended by CPP.

We found another shop that is happy to install the washers later this week. I'm wondering if the previous shop may have mistakenly adjusted some of the barrels so I'll see if they can check that and put them all back to the full clockwise position they were in previously. I will post an update regarding whether or not adding the washers, advancing the timing, or checking the barrels results in any improvements.

 

[GAmes]

I'm wondering if the previous shop may have mistakenly adjusted some of the barrels so I'll see if they can check that and put them all back to the full clockwise position they were in previously.

So you "racked" the barrels. That could be the heart of the problem right there.

 

[fox]

The barrels are rotated to balance and match each other. When you rotate them how would anyone know if they all flow the same?

Answer, you cannot unless it is bench tested.

There are many other, and correct ways to make power than screw up a calibration!!!
Also the delivery valves, if not modified correctly will not seal as they also act as a check valve in the injector lines. No seal, lope can happen.
My advice is to go back to the beginning and start over.
And stop reading those magazines that have all the secrets!!!!

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

As most of you know, I did a lot of work on my 913 pump a decade ago in the quest for HP. The pump does not use DV washers, and I found through dyno testing that the stock 181 DVs gave the same or more HP compared to the 191s and cut DVs. Never turn the barrels to max as noted above, this pump does not respond the same as the "smaller" pumps. The barrels can be turned, but on a Bosch test stand to balance them. Over and over I have read about using bigger cut DVs, and I can assure you that you don't want them or their driveability issues on the 913 pump.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Regardless of delivery valve size, it still shouldn't be loping so hard it breaks crap. Someone screwed up the pump settings or didn't install the DVs correctly. Or installed them with dirt. That should never have left their shop running like that.

 

[MMcCallie]

We found another local shop that understood the situation I described. They installed the washers that sealed what must have been a leak and the problem was fixed. I am back from averaging 11 mpg with an engine that ran rough, hot, and smokey to again averaging my normal 15 mpg, 16 with mostly interstate driving.

EGTs also dropped to where they were previously. The lope has almost completely smoothed out. AFC is again full forward with very little smoke throughout the RPM range. The next big tuning step will be to install AFC Live Stage 2 in the dash. I can still reach high EGTs like I always could under heavy acceleration. I am again able to make boost into the high 40's.

Why the original shop refused to install the washers does not make sense to me. They refused to believe what I told them or to call CPP to get the information direct, forcing me to pay for the same job twice. Not to mention the troubles I experienced, breaking down out of state, etc. Before I became crippled I did almost everything myself. Hopefully my experience can help others avoid these issues; if the company says to install the washers even on a pump that didn't originally use them, that the manufacturer's instructions to install everything in the kit should be heeded.

 

[HHhuntitall]

NOT for the sake if defamation, but for the sake of our members, what shop did the install? No one wants to use them if they're going to do things like this......

 

[JMcCoy]

Shame on them for turning their back on you.

 

[MMcCallie]

I've thought I would find time to stop by their shop and talk to the owner about why he did what he did but it hasn't happened and probably never will. The shop is called Kempin Automotive located in House Springs, MO just off of Highway 30. The owner's name is Chris Kempin.

My father was the one dealing with Chris. I had printed instructions and included the phone number for CPP. Chris twice lectured my father for fifteen minutes, explaining how he had to be right and even the manufacturers had to be wrong. Instead of rudely reaming my father he could have spent five minutes on the phone with them on been corrected. This would have saved me a lot of downtime and a lot of money. He was horribly arrogant.

When my father showed up for the last appointment Chris gave him the second rant. On top of that he cancelled the appointment and sent him away saying he wouldn't work on our truck anymore. Wouldn't even honor the appointment to raise the timing. My poor father hated getting yelled at by that man. He didn't stand up for himself at all and took the abuse, turned the other cheek so to speak. For months he was sad about how Chris Kempin had talked down to him for absolutely no reason. And Chris Kempin was 100% wrong! His bullying had no justification.

I probably could have gone without mentioning all of that but over the years we had them work on this truck they proved to be decreasingly competent. For example for years now I have been driving with a headlight broken by them. Some idiot decided not to put the air intake back on all the way. This made the hood unable to close like it should have. It must have taken two or three strong men to get that hood to latch. The passenger side was stuck up high and the driver's side came down so far it split open my headlight.

It was a massive struggle to get the hood open. When we finally did the corners of the hood differed in height by over 10". We had to wrestle the hood to try to get it back into its previous shape so it would latch under its own weight again. There is no possible good excuse for such gross incompetence.

I am a very easy going and kind person and never brought up the broken headlight with Chris. But I wasn't expecting how much worse things would get and how he would treat my very kind father. Before the headlight problem I had many experiences where wiring they had "fixed" with simple crimp connectors were constantly breaking or having to be redone because they were done so poorly. And I would find stupid high fees for unnecessary zip ties everywhere that I would always have to remove.

They worked on my AirDog for years. I definitely place the majority of that responsibility on the manufacturer, but Kempin's shop was frequently having to redo their own wiring. I spent thousands of dollars there having my air conditioning worked on. Turns out another local shop discovered that they had neglected to tighten a nut.

I once silently let him rant at me about air conditioning. He was trying to tell me something about the fan clutch, completely forgetting that I had a custom made plastic fan with an electromagnetic Horton fan clutch. I didn't want to make him feel stupid despite the fact it was obvious he was trying to effect that inference towards me.

The shop is horrible and the owner talks down to his customers as if no one can possibly match his intellect. And the vehicle would often sit there for weeks before they would even pull it into their shop. We were excellent customers for years recommending them to other clients, always on time for appointments, paid every bill on time, etc. There is no way we deserved the treatment we received.

I've had no more issues since the washers, gaskets, whatever you want to call them were finally properly installed. I can still get the engine to lope if I have it at just the right RPM, but it easily smoothes out slightly lower or higher. They definitely are a "hot" DV as advertised but I am enjoying the upgrade with far less smoke off idle than expected. I frequently check my mirror expecting to see black smoke and see no more than a very light haze. If I stomp the coal will still roll.

I'd like to add that I've found horrible shops all over the country. It is terribly rare to find mechanics who can actually think beyond merely swapping a part. The generation that used to have to fix parts literally in the field using ingenuity is phasing out. Now, if you can't read a code the problem doesn't even exist in a mechanic's mind. And I've found that even the most reputable shops and mechanics can make huge blunders to which they will never own up. I don't mean to ramble about declining integrity in America. Just wanted to make sure potential customers of this shop know what they are getting into. My advise is to go elsewhere.