Performance Intake Manifold

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Hi Guys!

Has anyone noticed the size and location of the intake manifold on our Cummins? It's a single intake casting located between the first and second cylinders. Doesn't seem like it would distribute air evenly to all the cylinders, especially if one is to turn up the boost. What this presents is hotter pistons and less power from the back cylinders. It is ironic that the fueling is equal to each cylinder, but hardly any effort has been placed to equally distribute the intake air. I would like to see a company come out with a "performance intake manifold" for our ISB and B5. 9 engines. Many engine builders address this issue first when developing a high horsepower gasoline engine. I don't see why we couldn't have one for our trucks considering we can run boost 38 psi and higher. I know Banks came out with the Twin Ram, but I'm not aware of its success or price. Wade Hogg!! I noticed you have a Twin Ram with the TST 330 plate. Can you fill us in on your experiences... likes and/or dislikes? Sorry to continue to ramble, but I think this would be a great addition to our trucks (along with a 20% larger intercooler!). If anyone has any information on modified intake manifolds for our Cummins, please post. I do remember several people stating they had their intake manifolds ported for greater airflow, but that still doesn't take care of evenly distributing air to all 6 cylinders. It seems a tubular unit could be constructed (much like headers) by a crafty fabricator.

Michael

 

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Well Michael,
Don't know if the extra money I spent is worth it. I have never known any different. I do know that I have more snot than I did before I installed the kit. I beleive that each of the fuel plates that are suppled with the Banks kits are a little different depending on the HP you desire. It would be a better test for someone to take the setup they have now, and add a manifold. All I do know is at 24500# GCVW, I can pull a 6% for 8 miles at 55mph. Thats awfully fun let me tell ya.

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96 Long bed EC, Banks Twin Ram, BD TC, BD EB, BD VB, Mag Hytec Pans, Warn 8000# winch, TJM Bull Bar, Speedliner, Katzkin Leather kit, K&N Filter, Trailmaster 2" Lift, 35BFG ATKO's, Kodiak Sidewinder Steps, Reflexion Cowl Hood, Autometer Guages, Horton Clutch Fan, PIAA Superwhites.

 

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Thanks Wade for the input on the Banks Twin Ram. I am curious of your EGTs when loaded with 24,500#. Are you running your engine at 330 hp? I know that Banks puts together a complete package, and they will only release it if it is safe for the engine. Many companies say that the torque plate is all that's needed, but I think that Banks puts more thought into it. Horsepower is great if you can use it, and it looks like you can use it! I would suspect that the Twin Ram keeps the EGTs down while working the engine hard. Can you comment on the quality of the component? I called Banks the other day to see if the Twin Ram will fit an ISB, but they said it does not. It would probably require a custom adapter plate. By the way, Banks reported they will come out with a Power Pack in the spring for the ISB. I can assure you that if they're combo outputs 300 hp, it will without harm to the engine.

Regards,
Michael

 

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MichaelT, I was thinking the same thing. On the 24v you'd have to reroute injector lines since they snake right over the intake manifold. But the Twin Ram setup looks bad!

I asked someone at Gale Banks and their opinion was (on the 24v) the twin ram wasn't necessary.

As far as air distribution goes, I think the scenario is different when you're talkng about forced versus natural aspiration. With turbocharging the entire intake manifold is pressurized, and therefore pressure will be equal at all points. You could put boost gauge at cylinder 6 and 2 and get the same reading. This means each cylnder gets the same amount of air. It doesn't matter how far a path the air has to take to reach a cylinder. As boost builds, cylinder 6 should see the pressure rise at virtually the same instant cylinder 2 does.

Another consideration: Air distribution on a gasser (especially with a carb) is more critical because it CARRIES THE FUEL necessary for combustion. You want it to get to all the cylinders as close to the same time as possible for best reponse and economy. On a diesel, who cares? You got DIRECT fuel injection!!


Well this is my theory anyway. Feel free to differ with it or pick it apart!

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Vaughn MacKenzie

1998 3/4T QC 4x4 Longbed, 24-valve 5-spd, White over Driftwood, Leather & Loaded, foglights, airdam, DeeZee Running Boards, K&N air filter. 51,420 miles (11/20/99)

 

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Thanks for your reply Vaughn. I reference the Bernoulli equation which states:
p1 + . 5*density*V1^2 = p2 + . 5*density*V2^2 + losses.
What this means is that from point 1 to point 2, total pressure is conserved (neglecting losses), and that the static pressure is dependent upon the velocity of the fluid. I can assure you there is a velocity profile within our intake manifolds which means that we also have a pressure profile. You can see at low velocities, the dynamics pressure is near zero, thereby leaving only static pressure. This is where you were misleading when stating that the pressure is equal in pistons 1 through 6. Your theory is correct for hydraulics for instance. Torque is directly related to the volumetric efficiency of the engine. The more efficient you can pump air through the engine, the more torque you'll produce. Obviously at low velocities the geometry of the intake manifold does not matter, but as the velocities increase by building boost and RPMs, it becomes more important. I think that a more efficient intake manifold would extend the torque curve into the upper RPMs. Also, since the flow to cylinder 2 is more efficient than to cylinder 6, the pressure will be smaller in 6 because of frictional losses. Therefore, piston 6 will burn hotter than piston 2. This could be proved just by placing a thermocouple in header 6 and one in header 2. As a side note, you mentioned that Banks said the Twin Ram was not necessary on the ISB. Well, Banks only offers the Stinger-Plus for the ISB and the Twin Ram is not required for the Singer-Plus on the B5. 9. The Twin Ram is introduced for the PowerPack (B5. 9) which is not yet available for the ISB. I am hoping a new intercooler will be offered for the ISB/PowerPack.

Let me know what 'cha think.

Regards,
Michael

 

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Refer to TDR issue 25, page 48. In a nutshell, comparing the EGT's for each cylinder during a dyno test (Banks had an exhaust manifold with 6 pyrometers):
Stock: TwinRam:
#1 1296 1264
#2 1272 1248
#3 1216 1216
#4 1248 1248
#5 1264 1248
#6 1232 1216
"The TwinRam shows only 48 degress between the high and low, a decrease of roughly 60% in temperature differential. Cylinder #1 continues to run slightly hotter due to an accessory casting in the port of the head which causes a restriction of air flow to that cylinder. "

Note: the above test was on a '98 12-valve.
Andy

 

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Andy beat me to it! (the Banks PowerPack installation on Scott Dalgliesh's 12v Ram, Second Time Around column in TDR issue 25).

I was told by the owner of a Diesel performance shop that installs hundreds of Banks kits each year, Banks has thus far, more or less, ruled out the TwinRam intake for the 24v engine for several reasons: 1) it's not really needed as there isn't the flow resriction in the #1 intake runner as in the 12v head and, 2) the injector fuel supply lines would have to be totally reconfigured to allow the TwinRam to be installed. You never know, it may happen yet!

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'98. 5 2500 QC 4x4, (Black) SLT Sport, personalized license plate: BLCKOUT, ISB, LWB, 3. 54 LSD, A/T, 275 hp. injectors, Glasstite Vision II "canopy", Line-X bed liner, 285/75R16 BFG A/Ts on 16x8 M/T Challengers, Warn 4X Boards, Mopar fender flares, front and rear NW Custom stainless steel/rubber mud flaps, Mag-Hytec diff. cover and trans. pan, Edelbrock IAS shocks, VDO Vision gauges, PIAA Dual Sport 900 auxiliary lights and Super White bulbs, BD exhaust brake and TorqLoc, Prime-Loc fuel filter relocation kit, and Banks exhaust.

SVP of BOMB! heh,heh,heh

 

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I lean toward what Vaughn said regarding the intake running a significant positive pressure instead of a negative pressure, tends to minimize the problem. Most folks I have spoken to (I think even R. Patton) have had the same response, "It looks good!" This is one of those things that would be fun to test on a dyno to quantify results.

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3/4 ton, 5 sp, lsd, 2wd, qcab, guages, Scotty sys. Rhino liner, Blue Box hp enhancement

 

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MichaelT, I agree with your arguement, the laws of physics definitely exist. Sometimes they're hard to understand/explain. I think we are both correct to an extent.

Certainly there is going to be a pressure gradient throughout the intake manifold which increases with a rise in airflow. The greatest unknown in this discussion is the volume and specific shape of the runners inside the intake. The greater the volume of the "plenum" supplying air to all the cylinders, the less pressure gradient you will have as airflow increases. Also considering the shape, having the same diameter supplying all cylinders (versus tapering down past each progressive cylinder) will reduce resistance to the back cylinders. Taking a look at our Cummins, it appears the intake has adequate volume and equal size to where differences in pressure are negligible. Engineering this has to be a balancing act because you don't want too much volume on your intake or else boost lag is increased.

This has been an interesting discussion to say the least!

 

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The Cummins, and maybe all Diesels, operate with excess air, oxygen, in all but top rpm/power operations.
So adding better air flow "might" make a little more power.
Maybe just make the engine run at reduced temperatures like the 4" exhaust.
It is interesting that the dyno test shows a large, 60%, difference in egt for certain cylinders for the 12v engine.
Maybe it's an injector problem.

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2000 3500 Quad Cab, SLT+, LSD, 4x2 Auto, 3. 54, Camper Option, Trailer Option, Sports Option, Sliding Rear Window, BLACK. With Power Bolt Tailgate Lock, Dodge Sill Guards, Mag-Hytec Rear End Cover, Leer Camper Shell.

 

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Thanks guys for all the replies. I have only been a member of the TDR for a couple months, so I don't have back issues to research. I think it is interesting that the first cylinder runs the hottest, even though it is very close to the intake. It seems logical for you 12v'ers to place the pyrometer in cylinder1's header. It's nice to know that the stock setup on the 24v engine works well. I suppose one tends to figure Cummins designed the intake and other components for the stock power, and not for 50% more power. My theory is the more air you can pump through the engine, the more fuel you can increase. It's so much easier (and cheaper) to increase fuel than to improve air flow. Does anyone else have suggestions on improving air flow?

Michael

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'00 Ram, RegCab, 4x2, Cummins, 6-spd, Driftwood/Agate, CD, CB, Reunel rear bumper, Line-X ...

 

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Yeah, It loks cool. I was really wanting to get it dyno'd at BD at the Dyno Days but as it goes, the Dyno broke. I only know of one persone that has added the intake after he had the kit and haven't been able to get a hold of him. It really does put out some good power though, even with the big fat tires I run.
I have to say the reason I went with Banks is because they have tested the combination. After talking to soe guys, by the time you buy the cam plate for more fuel, it causes the high EGT's so you buy the larger exhaust, and then ususally the lkarger turbo, etc. . With Banks you pay it all up front and get it all. Might not produce as much power as other combo's, but I belive I am pretty safe to put my truck into someone elses hands.
My EGT's when pulling are about 1150 at a full load. That is pulling it at 50-55mph. If I lose my momentum though, they'll shoot right up. Just a couple taps of the brakes and I'm usuall back to speed

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96 Long bed EC, Banks Twin Ram, BD TC, BD EB, BD VB, Mag Hytec Pans, Warn 8000# winch, TJM Bull Bar, Speedliner, Katzkin Leather kit, K&N Filter, Trailmaster 2" Lift, 35BFG ATKO's, Kodiak Sidewinder Steps, Reflexion Cowl Hood, Autometer Guages, Horton Clutch Fan, PIAA Superwhites.

 

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I am not an expert but do like to theorize where this stuff is concerned. The air supply is a byproduct of adding fuel. When you add fuel, you increase the turbo rpm's which will increase boost, which is air supply. This is not like a flowed, polished, cc'd, head on a gas engine where you attempt to decrease the friction of the intake tract to improve air/fuel supply. This is a system where you have a positive pressure with the main barrier being the intake valve opening to let the cylinder charge with air. The more boost you can generate the more fuel you can add, the limiting factor is egt. I am told that egt will drop 100 degrees for every 4 lbs. of boost. Now if your name is Dave Mitchell, you run 60 lbs. of boost (should translate to 600 hp) and there isn't a PSD that can scare him. By the way they won the pulling competition in Georgia this last weekend, he must have a pile of 1st place trophys out back of his house. My next question for him will be about the hose connectors he uses for the intake system on his pulling truck, he must double clamp them to keep them on. I'm poppin' them off at half the pressure he runs!

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3/4 ton, 5 sp, lsd, 2wd, qcab, guages, Scotty sys. Rhino liner, Blue Box hp enhancement

 

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Just for giggles, I e-mailed Diesel Injection Service -> www.dieselpage.com for a price on the twin ram kit (only) for my truck - here's what they said:

$536. 25 - yes it can be sold seperately anf you do have the right part
number as long as yours is not a California model with an EGR valve

You can place an order or reach me for more information at 1-800-658-9355

So there you have it - a little out of my range unless someone (besides Banks) can tell me that its worth it. Sure looks cool though. .

 

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I have dyno tested the Twin Ram and was disappointed from that perspective. The real problem with #1 is in the head, as I told Scott before he wrote his article for TDR. I believe that proper head porting is the correct approach to solve the egt problem to the extent that it can be solved with respect to airflow in the head. The stock intake manifold, which is just a flat cover plus the heater grid, is not the problem. BTW, head porting lowered egt 200+ deg. and did not hurt response at any rpm. Contrary to some ill-informed posts about airflow equalling power, no power was gained by head porting. Fuel=power. However, reducing egt does allow one to increase fueling for more power, and still be within safe limits.

 

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Hey!... Now I'm catchin' on. I recognize your name Joseph Donnelly. For you newbys, this guy writes articles for the TDR and they happen to be right up my ally in that they are performance related. Joseph happens to be part of the TST braintrust so my conslusion is that we have fresh meat to feed on (so to speak). I'm starting to write down the 2000 or so questions I have thought up today to apply Joseph's horsepower template to. This is great news Rammers, we lost CMECHANIC, and we lost Mark too, but now we can suffocate Joseph with dumb questions! So where you been Joseph? Heck, even you would have to agree that the twin ram intake looks good, right!

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3/4 ton, 5 sp, lsd, 2wd, qcab, guages, Scotty sys. Rhino liner, Blue Box hp enhancement

 

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Joe, I think porting is an excellent idea for reducing the EGTs. I completely agree with you that improving the air flow does not improve power, but allows more fuel to be burned at safer EGTs. I own a 24V, and I'm sure those that own the 12V are interested as well in what is involved in the porting process. Do you recommend porting the intake side, exhaust side, what specifically? Also, have you actually seen or performed this operation on a 12V or 24V? Do you know of a company that has done this for the Cummins? Thanks for the information and R&D you have for this site. It is much appreciated.

Regards, Michael



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'00 Ram, RegCab, 4x2, Cummins, 6-spd, Driftwood/Agate, CD, CB, Reunel rear bumper, Line-X ...

 

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As to where I have been, I have been on the TST list for a long time, and when AOL gave me some trouble, I got bumped off Cummins and DiRT, and didn't bother to rejoin. I looked at this list a while ago, but it has taken a while to get my sh-- together and get registered to post on it.

I painted the Twin RAm that I tested Titanium Black (stock Cummins Ram color), and replaced some bolts with longer ones since they thread into aluminum. Yes, it looked interesting, but I like a sleeper, and get tired of explaining, "no that is not what makes the power, fuel does it" etc. I have the stock 3" exhaust except for the 18. 5 cm2 turbo housing, but will go to full 4" with 4" stainless cat inlet and Walker muffler (21471) when Piers gets me the magic turbo in a couple weeks.

Yes, I ported the head on my Ram, and that is where I got the data I reported. It works but is time consuming. Mark of TST thought we might have something to offer the more crazy Rammers, but cost may prohibit making many sales--with a new head, one is looking at someting like $2200-2500. Often the old head is cracked, even though there was no evidence to the owner of the Ram that he had this incipient problem brewing. I don't have data yet, but the porting work should significantly reduce any chance of cracking.

As to just what work I did, I followed the guidance of the Cummins engineers --literally all they said was "we did what seemed obvious. " I don't know if what seemed obvious to me was the same thing, but it worked, and I have been doing heads off and on for 1/4 century. I did not waste time doing things that just look pretty, but there was plenty to do that I felt was needed. I would be ashamed to put that stock head on a farm tractor. Mark Chapple told me that I would be astonished at how many man hours Cummins put into designing that head. I replied "it doesn't show. "

 

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Ok,ok, I know I'm off topic, but why did we lose Mark? I know how we lost cmehanic.