Archived Please help! disabled gen2 24 valve w/ very odd symptoms, need truck back soon!

[JMumbauer]

This is my first post so bear with me. Sunday night, coming home late, the truck made one very audible "thump" that shook the entire truck and caused the engine to go completely dead. Happened while cruising at maybe 1800 RPM in 5th gear (approximately) and will not start. After initially pulling over, the engine cranks fine like there is even compression so the camshaft is still in sync, but there are no external signs of damage.



Had the truck towed and last night I pulled the timing cover expecting to find the worst, but everything appears to be fine; all gears appear to be in excellent condition and there are no foreign pieces of anything to be found.



Before I started to disassemble I might add that I loosened one fuel line from my injection pump and had a friend crank the engine. There was the typical pulsation of fuel from around the fitting that one would expect. I also checked to see that the turbocharger appears to be fine and spins freely and that valve actuation from cranking the engine also appears to be normal (just by peaking in through the oil fill hole). Also the lift pump cycles as it should as the key is turned on and off and as the engine is cranked. Yes, the fuel tank is just about completely full.



This puts me clear out of ideas and I hate to tear into the truck any farther with no idea of what could be wrong. My suspicions still lie with fuel delivery, but I am not very diesel savvy and would great appreciate any input. Thanks in advance.



Jake Mumbauer

1999 2500 Ram 24 Valve Cummins 5spd 4WD, 243,000 miles completely stock

 

[Partyat33]

Check for codes. Thats where I would start. You can use the key method or for $60. 00 you can get a scanner.

 

[FourBarR]

no key check on 99,need scanner.

 

[JMumbauer]

codes

I have tried to pull codes with the key before on my truck and it doesn't have that capability. I believe that was something the ECM is capable of doing on the 2000 model year and newer trucks. I know Chrysler has been allowing you to retrieve DTCs for years on alot of their cars with digital odometers, but for some reason the trucks could not until 2000.



The ECM never gave me a check engine light, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a helpful code in it so I'll start there.



Is there a chance that my fuel shut off solenoid is stuck open for some reason? I don't know, just clutching at straws here; thanks for the ideas.



Jake

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

If you have compression and fuel to *ALL* injectors, it pretty much HAS to start - even if the injection timing was off a bit, there should be SOME signs of firing - try loosening ALL injector lines to verify they are all free of air...

 

[Partyat33]

Pep boys has scanners for cheap. Without it you are really shooting in the dark. That thump could have been caused by many things. I spent days trying to figure out why my truck would not start. It can be frustrating.

 

[csutton7]

pull the valve cover and look in there--check your push rods to make sure none are broke ----I'd also check a couple or more injectors to see if you have fuel coming out---I'm guessing your lift pump is working---you have no fuel shut off solenoid---drain your oil and see if all is ok---get back to us----chris

 

[JDinterman]

Sounds like the vp-44 went mine made the thump when it died. My never turned the check engine light on either.

 

[SAndreasen]

sounds like the injection pump to me 2 i have seen where they still pump fuel to the injectors and still wont start or even make a puff of smoke. the best thing would be to te get a code reader and go from there

 

[Skydiver]

Harmonic balancer??? My guess.
Said it shook the entire truck and it's got a quarter million miles.

 

[JMumbauer]

codes

I got some codes out of the ECM and are as follows:



P1688 Internal Fuel Injection Pump Conroller Failure

P1989 No communication between ECM and Injection Pump Module



Has anyone ever heard of a pump controller failing? I guess it's possible but not likely. I will try stopping by the local injection pump shop up the road and ask them how to diagnose.

 

[CSnyder]

P1688 means its your injection pump. Its all in the pump wiring harness. Send me a private message if you would like a price on a reman pump or send your number and I will call to chat about it.

 

[csutton7]

mine did--you need a new vp44---you can go stock, hot rod or if you can wait there's some even newer ones that will be on the market soon that are to have better electronics and more HP capability----chris

 

[RJWEST]

csutton7: tell us more, please...

 

[csutton7]

first off I'm not the guy who knows all the info on these new HOT VP's, but what I've found is this--again this isn't the final say and only what I've been told or read elsewhere--also the dyno #'s are just for comparison--there may discrepancies from other sources, but this should give you an idea--



stage 1 pump $1800 equal in price to the HRVP or close to it, but is said to provide more HP--



here's what was said: (I don't know what stage pump this was but it sounded like a stage 1, but that could be wrong)



"The mods on the truck that dynoed there were 8x13 (maybe 11 but I'm pretty sure I was told 13) injectors, street twins, Edge Comp, AFE intake, 5in exhuast, boost elbow, studs and other things however no major internals other than fire rings which most guys do. It had a HRVP on it with a good clutch both times. "... ... ... ... ... ... ...



"I do know the old numbers were just under 600 with the HRVP44 and with the new HOTVP was at 700 with numbers above an below 700 for various runs, all with the same setting on the truck. "



they did 4 runs between 688-704 if I remember correctly with the new pump--so 100HP is approximately--



stage 2 pump $2100---and here's what's been said about it: "I also hold dyno sheets comparing a stock pump to a stage 2 and 3 on a mustang dyno on the same day.

The truck was running a single HTT 64/14, 7@. 019 inj. and no electronics.

Stock:424 h. p. 892tq.

stage2: 520 h. p. 1081tq.

stage3: 551 h. p. 1099tq. "



stage 3 pump $2800



I have been told some cc flow #'s, but I've been told different #'s also--so I'm not going to post the exact #'s cuz I'm not sure how right they are, but I'll post the differences on the lower end --



HRVP flows 40cc's more than a stock pump

stage 1 HOTVP flows 20-30 more cc's than the HRVP

stage 2 HOTVP flows 50cc more than the stage 1

stage 3 HOTVP flows 150 cc more than the stage 2



now again I'm not totally sure the above #'s are 100% right because I keep getting new info that refutes what I've been told before--but these are on the low scale of what I've been told



from a source who knows the manufacturer: "The manufacturer feels that more air will make the difference in #2 and #3 more significant because it flows alot more cc,s of fuel. "





a stage 2 pump has been on a truck for 6 months or so and is doing well--



a stage 3 is on a truck now but needs more testing to get a feel for it--



there will be, hopefully, in the very near future a couple of more of the stage 3's on the street for more results



at this time they are not readily available to my knowledge and I think they'll be on an order by order basis for awhile, but since I don't know the manufacturer I can't be for sure, just my gut feeling---I do know at least 2 of the stage 3's have been ordered, but they are waiting for parts to come in I believe to finish the build--this is probably true of all pumps that have been ordered--



they are for sale from 3 companies only with 1-3 guys maybe selling for these guys off the internet---a core is required---warranty will depend who you buy from and the manufacturer wants the pump back to see what failed and will supposedly work with you to get it fixed----electronics are upgraded and not the FED EX upgrade----



Some say you need bigger lines and crossovers and big injectors with the stage 3 and of course big turbo or turbos and stage 2 possibly the same but just a little smaller in scale---as usual streetabliity is up to the end user---



the word is these things will be a boom for the VP crowd--but you need to take the info for what it's worth at this point--some dyno'd #'s by two of the people selling these things, the cc's flow #'s for what they're worth at this point until someone tests them---



yes I have a stage 3 coming so you will get my views soon----chris

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

For many owners, the BIG question related to these "bigger and better" pumps will be reliability and lifespan - what is acceptable for guys in sled pulls and drag racing may NOT be acceptable to guys running hotshot and towing RVs.



The HRVP's already have been represented by Blue Chip and Industrial injection as more likely to suffer from early failures than a stock SO or HO pump - will these newest pumps be even more so?



There's far more to building a RELIABLE power pump than simply larger plungers and bores - plus new PSG programming - let's hope the new pumps are a TOTAL package - and not one that simply addresses more fuel volume at the expense of other overstressed internals not designed for the added loads...

 

[csutton7]

very true indeed--I'm all for reliablility, even though I sled pull my truck gets used everyday---the word is they are to be more reliable, but I'm not sure and no one will be sure until we get some proven miles on them to prove or disprove what's being said now---the stage 1 & 2 will be more streetable than the 3 is the info I have---but I went to the 3 first to see what it will and won't do---if need be I will go down a stage at a time until I find what works and doesn't work for me, but all indications are the stage 2 is reliable, but it still needs more time in the field as that's the only way to prove reliability and HP/flow numbers will come as guys test them to their limits---I know one of the stage 3 pumps will be put through the grinder and I'll be more for daily driving with the occasional all out assault on the dyno and sled pull track and maybe an occasional pass down the 1/4 mile track----the good thing is the guy making them will work with you if one fails--of course stacking 3 or more boxes on one may alter his commitment to this, but all indications are stacking a couple of boxes is ok, vs if you even put a box on a stock or HRVP the warranty is out the door----of course you need to discuss this further with the vendor as one may have a different take than another on the warranty and box issue, but I have it from one guy that he will stand behind it as I outlined above----chris

 

[JMumbauer]

pump condition

I have decided to remove my injection pump and replace it. I have started doing some research on the procedure and possible replacement pumps. What do you guys think about Blue Chip Diesel pumps? They seem to take alot of pride in their work. Maybe someone here has done business with them.



Thanks for all the input, this gives me alot of confidence in my decision.



Jake

 

[csutton7]

so are you thinking of the HRVP vs stock???

 

[CSnyder]

Im calling BS on this monster VP! There is no such thing being produced after talking to some of my suppliers.



Jake, thank you for your order and call if you have any questions!