PLEASE TELL ME EVERYTHING YOU KNOW ABOUT PROPANE

[Arcticat]

I am getting interested in this modification, in particular the Poweredge mating fueling box auto controlled propane system. Regardless of the brand, though, I am most interested in what have been the effects on smoke and EGT's? Also where have you mounted the tank? HVAC, have you sold one of the edge propane systems yet? Any reports? I know there is alot of power in this mod.

 

[C Schomer]

I know some properties of propane as far as gas appliances go, but not auto applications. It is C4H10,Sp. gravity-1. 8,2500 BTU/cu. ft. at sea level(2. 5 times as hot as nat. gas). I've heard that it is equivalent to 130 octane gasoline. Craig

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97 3/4Ton, 2WD, 5SP, #11 Plate, 14 Housing, AF942M Air filter, Gutted Cat, 4"From Turbo, Shortened Frame, Custom Bed, HEY FORDBOY POWERSTROKE THIS!

 

[Dane]

Everything I know... It makes my chicken and steaks taste good when I burn it, stinks when I don't and makes Dodges go like stink when they burn it inside the Cummins #ad
#ad
#ad


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2001 HO 6 speed Regular Cab SLT 4x4 3. 54 anti spin 2500. Used for the daily grind and sneaking away to some secret Baja beaches toting a cabover

 

[HVAC]

Oh man!!! I love this topic.

I took big heat for hanging out with some of the Ford boys last night and trying to help them with this same subject.

Dane, I have heard that the vapor trails I leave have an off color boquet #ad


Craig, I'm going to double check my figures but I believe C4H10 is butane, propane is C3H8. Specific gravity of propane vapor is aprox. 1. 53 or roughly 50% heavier then air. 2500 btu's per cu ft is a good figure if you temp correct to 60 degrees. HD-5 grade propane is closer to 110 octane I believe, not sure on that one. It's about 4. 25 lbs per gallon at 60 degrees F. And yes, it smells horrible #ad
Ethyl mercapton is to thank.

I won't leave a link to the pic on my site or surely be guilty of an infraction. Email me if you want to see my tank mounted in the bed and the regulator under the hood.

I have heard of a guy (me) who was able to measure a 110 horsepower performance improvement (me again) with the substance you refer to. I was told the system is armed via a switch in the cab and then controled by a switch that senses boost levels. When the boost level comes up to the point that you are asking for "CUMMINS POWER"!! ARRR. . ARRRR,
say 6 psi, then the boost sensitive switch tells the relay to send power to the solenoid and... OH BABY!... COME TO PAPA #ad


Now this is what I have heard and since I cannot confirm it (I have pictures) you will just have to find out for yourselves #ad

 

[willyslover]

WELLL I'm here to tell ya that once ol" HVAC's switch opens the valve ... SITTTT BAAACCCKKKK AAANNNDDDD enjoy the ride hehe''''a HP junkies thrilllllllll. .
I for sure will have it on the next rig . .

 

[Hot Shot]

I have thought of propane injection as a upgrade but what will it do to EGT's pulling a load and under continuous use?


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2001 3500 QC 24V SLT Larimie, leather, VA CPC,Gauges,Torq-loc
Black w/ Ranchhand bumpers Brownes HD HA rack and a black wetherguard coffin. --pullee 34Ft. gooseneck and a 16ft. monorail
2000 Durnago SLT 5. 9litre V8

 

[HVAC]

Regarding egt, I cannot see any appreciation in egt as a result of using propane. As a matter of fact it may decrease egt.

Anyone know how propane actually causes an improvment in performance when used with diesel? Well for those who don't, it helps to burn the diesel. It acts as a catalyst. This improves combustion beyond the normal compression ingnition which means more power.
I guess this is like putting oxygen with acetylene. Acetylene will burn if you remember welding shop, but you get soot and you don't develop any real heat. When you add oxygen it burns much differently, much hotter and cleaner. Propane is not an oxidizer but you get the picture, the combo works better then diesel by itself(where Abbott be without Costello?).

Getting back to egt, knowing the combustion process has been improved, this means the energy is being released (or created) in the head where it can be transferred to the drivetrain and not in the exhaust manifold where it is picked up as egt by the thermocouple.

 

[scotty1]

HVAC you advertising banished from the ford site BOMBer... heheheh. #ad


Correct me if I am wrong here ok? Propane cools the charge air a little bit also, correct?

Heres a question on the propane. 'IF' its running during upshifts or downshifts [auto or manual] wouldn't that cause a slight build-up of propane in the intercooler during the loss of rpm between shifts?
If so, what will the effect be in the combustion chambers with this build-up?

I am just thinking if the propane is flowing all the time, what happens when boost drops and or rpm does too? Where does the extra propane go?

ME wondering about an unwelcome BOMB eh.

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My Site

[This message has been edited by scott1 (edited 08-05-2000). ]

 

[Bart Timothy]

I've been running the PE w/propane for 3 months now and have done lots of experimenting trying to find the best settings to suit my needs. I like it very much. These are observations you may be interested in.

From a fluidity standpoint propane is exactly the same as R22 and in fact but for the flamability would make an excellent refridgerant. I run it as a vapor wich simplifies the installation qite a bit over running liquid. It took about 45 mins to install (the PE box was already there). There appears to be no reason to run it in the liquid form for diesel engines as vapor gives more than enough fuel for dramatic results at outside temps of 30 degrees and above. I haven't tried it on a real cold winter day this way, but I can say that after hard use the tank isn't iced up or anything like that.

Using one backyard 20 lb bbq tank lasts about 200 to 225 miles of getting on it city - freeway driving. This is at the maximun setting. I turn it off for just driving down the highway unless more power is needed for hills etc. The PE unit alows you to adjust the maximum of propane you get. Using settings lower than this result in lower power but higher propane fuel mileage. At the max setting, diesel mileage goes up about 4 mpg, but at 1. 46 for diesel and . 99 for propane total fuel costs are still increased. I use a dual 20 lb tank setup located in my bed tool box which hides everything from public view. For me this was a cheap and slick setup (2 20 lb tanks = $48 vs $120 for a fork lift tank which only holds about 3/4 the amount of propane). You should check your local laws governing locating propane tanks in enclosed areas such as a tool box.

Power - gobs of it - at the max setting way more than my clutch can handle even at very light throttle. Turbo boost comes up twice as fast.

Smoke - turns to a grey color with lots of it at the max setting.

Engine sound - serious power sound, kind of a new knock, way cool when the propane comes on.

Ease of use - push a button turn it on - push the button turn it off.

EGTs - down 100 to 200 degrees compared to the same power level on diesel alone.

down side - filling the propane tank.

problems - The PE unit turns on the propane at about 3 lbs boost and the amount of propane used by the engine (other than manual settings) is governed by the "J" regulator on the suction side of the turbo. The "J" governs the amount of propane based on the amount of air drawn in. Making gear shifts at high boost and rpm levels creates problems because when letting off the accelerator to make the shift, the engine quits getting diesel fuel alright, but because boost takes a second to come down, still gets propane and keeps running on longer than desired. This probably wouldn't be a problem on an automatic trans. For manual trans a better way of controlling propane would be to sense the boost AND throttle or clutch position.

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'01 4x4 SWB Quad Cab
ETH/DEE
trailer tow group
camper special group
354 posi
PowerEdge module w/propane
pillar mounted combo pyro & boost guage
various appearance goodies

 

[HVAC]

Mr. LARGE... I do not believe that propane in a vapor form will provide any cooling although if one(me) were to spray it in as a liquid then by golly you would. I have a concept for a product that would do this for the very same reason.

To answer the second question you pose, I have my system setup to normally not provide any propane into the intake system. I only have a itty bitty 8 gallon aluminum fork lift tank mounted in the bed of the itty bitty Ram so I only want the system to energize when I need warp drive #ad
Otherwise I would be making a lot of trips to the gas station to get the tank refilled. What this means is that it takes at least 6 psi of boost before power is sent to the lock-off and vapor begins to flow into the intake tract. I don't get 6psi under normal acceleration and so no propane. Even if I did hit 6psi and the propane came on for a second, as soon as I let off to shift the boost level would fall and the pressure sensitive switch would shut off the propane.

 

[Arcticat]

Bart, thank you for the great post. This is the first review for the edge system I have read.

HVAC, does the edge system have a provision for raising the boost level at which the propane kicks in? I noticed yours kicks in at 6psi and Bart's at 3psi. Also is there a convenient shut off? Finally, can this system be added to the edge that I already have, or will it be necessary to get a new box and/or fish a new wiring harness through the firewall to accomodate the extra function of the box controlling the propane?

 

[David_VT]

Articat,
Once again, we are on the same trail...
My original PE came with the propane controls but I have yet to order the propane hardware, especially since the clutch is so bad. (2nd rev is missing it, but I am confident that Brett will fix that).

As soon as MoparMuscle gets on board with the Propane, we will have to have another 'session'. (but this time we will know about the local law enforcement)

D

 

[Arcticat]

It is uncanny isn't it? The three of us all buy the VA. Then the 275 injectors. Then the Edge. Now we are all thinking about propane for more than just barbeques.

By your post, it appears a different box then what I have will be necessary for the propane. Can you tell me, what is the control on your box for the 'pane, and what does it do?

 

[HVAC]

Arcticat - You won't need to get another PE. I have a Hobbs pressure switch tied in at the point where my boost gauge pressure sensor is located. This will work fine for you too. The pressure level the PE sends an output signal for propane can be changed I believe, it would have to go back for Brett to make the change. I might also mention that the [Censored] boost gauge also has a programmable output signal if I recall correctly.

I have a toggle switch on my dash to arm the propane system. The PE w/output has a pushbutton switch to arm the propane system.

If you choose to go with the PE w/output, you will need to run only the output wire, the wiring harness stays in place.

[This message has been edited by HVAC (edited 08-06-2000). ]

 

[Bart Timothy]

I believe the PE could probably be reprogramed to have propane come in at different boost pressures. I like the boost comming in at 3 lbs even though it tends to aggravate the engine run-on problems when shifting at high rpms and boost pressures. It deffinately helps geting boost in the lower 3 gears. I an achieve 20 lbs boost in 2nd gear running empty before having to shift.

The difference between the regular PE and PE Pro is the circuitry to turn on a selonoid located on the fuel inlet side of the "J" regulator. The box has another on/off switch for the propane and a blue LED to tell when it's on. There is an extra wire pigtail coming out of the box which wire ties to a wire going straight to the selonoid. The regular and Pro use the same wiring harness.

The only other thing "special" about the whole setup is the collar which injects propane vapor into the intake airstream. It fits between the airfilter and the flex hose which goes to the turbo. It is about 2-3 inches long and has a tube, welded in at a right angle to the airstream, inserted halfway right in the middle of the air stream, to inject the propane. A hose leading to the oulet of the regulator is connected to the outside end of the tube. This is an extremely simple affair and probably more fine tuning could be made at this point.

Everything else in the setup is standard 4 cyl propane stuff. The "J" regulator can be used with either liquid or vapor fuel and has plumbing provisions for hot water when used with LP. It has a manually adjustable valve on the fuel inlet to adjust the max amont of fuel it recieves. Its job is to vaporize the fuel and dispense it according to the amount of vaccuum on the fuel outlet, but is probably more consistant at vaporizing in the liquid mode. Running in the vapor mode is an extremely easy installation because no water has to be plumbed. I mounted my regulator on top of the alternator bracket (have seen the plumbed ones mounted on the firewall or right fender). Come this winter I may be wishing otherwise, though. These are temperature/pressure issues but maybe just electrically heating the tank will make the thing run ok in real cold weather.

I really like my tank setup using the 20 lb tanks because I can either get them filled or swapped out anywhere. The tanks simply sit upright in brackets inside my tool box and the door keeps them in place. I used the newer tooless type hose fittings (modified to take the restrictions out) and can have a tank out in 30 seconds. To add more fuel capacity all I have to do is add more tanks. The box (DeeZee from Sam's Club)will hold 4 or 5 tanks and still have room for lots of other things. I tried the fork lift tank and it is slick (especially the aluminum ones) but just didn't work well inside a box.

Injecting LP straight into the engine sounds interesting.

The last time I talked to Taylor from PE he stated they were getting out of the propane business, except for the special PE box, and were having someone else do the kits. Talk to either him or Brett about your questions, they've done lots of experimenting with propane.

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'01 4x4 SWB Quad Cab
ETH/DEE
trailer tow group
camper special group
354 posi
PowerEdge module w/propane
pillar mounted combo pyro & boost guage
various appearance goodies

 

[Rebel]

Was wondering if there is a possible fire/explosion hazard if the propane solenoid valve was to slowly leak overnight partially flooding the intake tract, then in the morning when the truck is started and it's cold enough out to activate the grid heater in the intake tract, KA-Boom??? #ad
(That would have to be Bombed beyond recognition) Do the 24V engines even have a grid heater or is this a 12V issue? Just a thought.

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97 2500 SLT 4X4,3. 54 gears,PAC brake,Cat sitting on shelf,Centerforce Dual Friction Clutch,K&N Filter

[This message has been edited by Rebel (edited 08-07-2000). ]

 

[Archive]

Originally posted by Rebel:
Do the 24V engines even have a grid heater or is this a 12V issue? Just a thought.

<font color=blue>Yes the 24v does have a grid heater. If ya look at the intake there is about a 1 to 2" "spacer" looking thing on the manifold that is where the heater resides.

 

[HVAC]

Rebel, if the solenoid didn't seal for some reason (seems like they more frequently fail to open rather then fail to seat) you would not have propane in the intake since the lock-off (solenoid) only provides fuel supply to the converter/regulator. In other words, the regulator is responsible for supplying the engine with propane. Since it responds to negative pressure it will not open while the engine is not running.

 

[Rebel]

HVAC, Where does the regulator get its negative signal from? Do you mean that it takes a little boost on one side of the regulator diaphragm to enable propane flow, so that at atmospheric pressure there is no flow?

I once had a Camero that was lovingly bottle feed nitrous. I'm seriously considering propane for my truck. I'm just a little leary because I've seen an intake manifold on a gasser blown completely off the engine (not mine) due to being flooded with nitrous. After seeing the damage done I always turned off my bottle when parked for very long. Really like the ability to turn the BIG hp on and off with the flick of a switch though.

 

[Bart Timothy]

Rebel, the negative pressure or suction comes from the air filter side of the turbo.

There is nothing particularly magic about these propane systems. Look at a propane powered fork lift and all the goodoies except for perhaps the collar, where the propane is injected, are there. In fact the model "J" regulator is what is used on many fork lifts and 4 cyl engines. Heard of any fork lifts leaking propane into the engine and blowing up lately (I know they don't have preheaters)?

The principle of operation is quite simple. The propane is not introduced into the engine until there is boost. The boost (3 lbs on the PE) controls a selonoid valve on the fuel supply line going into the regulator. The regulator determines the amount of propane vapor by the amount of pre turbo air flow - simular to the way a carb determins the amount of gasoline needed - the main differences being that the propane is a gas vapor under pressure and not a liquid like gasoline, which has to be "sucked", so therefore a venturi isn't necessarily needed. If there's no airflow past the fuel outlet line protruding into the airstream at the collar (a hose runs from here to the outlet of the regulator) then the regulator doesn't supply fuel - even with the selonoid valve "on". The oulet of the regulator not only supplies fuel but also does all the sensing of airflow. The only lines into and out of the regulator are water (used to haet and vaporize LP) and fuel. Most "J"s have a primer button on top (comparable to a choke) to aid in starting the engine and are able to be used in either gas or liquid (LP) mode.

Probably the biggest problem with this type of propane installation would be a runaway engine which was supplied too much propane, with no throttle plates to stop air flow. The on/off switch of coarse can prevent this. The "J" also, sort of, keeps this problem in check because it was designed for a much smaller engine (there are much larger model regulators avialable) and really probably can't supply enough fuel needed for a runaway engine. The theory is that you supply just enough propane for extra added power. Diesel is still the main fuel. Too much propane would also likely destroy the engine (put in enough of it and there are pretty seriuos knocking sounds).

There are sure plenty of other ways to setup these systems. For example a low tech way of operating the selonoid valve would be to tee a pressure switch into the line leading to the wastegate. I personally would like to experiment with injecting propane "pre boost" to see what happens to lowend power. To do this the "J" may need to see more air flow ala a venturi, for example.

Almost everything needed for these setups is avialable at many propane supply companies, probably at a much cheaper price than buying a kit. You'll more than likely end up having to buy a supply tank there anyway, even when buying a kit elsewhere. The "J", for example, costs maybe $125. They may even have all the mounting brackets and a slick way of injecting the propane into the intake airstream. Wasatch Propane here in SLC doesn't sell kits, but has everything needed for one, and has certainly supplied me with lots of info on regulators, connectors, supply lines, tanks, tech tips, local ordinances, etc.

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'01 4x4 SWB Quad Cab
ETH/DEE
trailer tow group
camper special group
354 posi
PowerEdge module w/propane
pillar mounted combo pyro & boost guage
various appearance goodies

[This message has been edited by Bart Timothy (edited 08-08-2000). ]

[This message has been edited by Bart Timothy (edited 08-08-2000). ]

[This message has been edited by Bart Timothy (edited 08-08-2000). ]