Powdered metal rods in 05 cummins?

[jrobinson2]

I have a friend that was told by his small town diesel performance shop that the '05 Cummins engine has powdered metal connecting rods like the late 7. 3 powersrokes and have a HP limit around 450 HP. They said this is new for '05 and one of the larger aftermarket suppliers has seen failures around 500HP.

Anybody heard anything about PM rods in Cummins? Is this BS?



Jared

 

[nickleinonen]

Is this BS?

i believe so

 

[Hohn]

Don't quote me on this, but I think the guy is confusing PM rods with "fracture cap" technology. They are not the same. Current rods use fractured caps, but not PM, AFAIK.



jlh

 

[thejeepdude]

There's no way Cummins would add technology to increase reliability with the higher HP ratings and at the same time shoot themselves in the foot with an inferior conrod design. Someone is misinformed.

 

[Tim]

Powdered metal really isn't an inferior design anyway, just everyone hates the words, "Powdered Metal" because they don't know what they talking about. That said, I've never heard of them being used in a Diesel and I'd imagine that the CTD in our trucks uses forged steel.

 

[jrobinson2]

Powdered metal really isn't an inferior design anyway, just everyone hates the words, "Powdered Metal" because they don't know what they talking about. That said, I've never heard of them being used in a Diesel and I'd imagine that the CTD in our trucks uses forged steel.

Tim,

I think the correct term may be MIM, or Metal Injection Molding?

The 7. 3 Powerstroke diesel in the Fords used PM rods the last few years it was produced, its widely known in the performance diesel industry that these need to be replaced with the stronger forged rods from the earlier engines when the HP approaches the 500 mark



Does anyone know for sure? I remember some speculation about PM rods when the 3rd gens were introduced, it wasn't true then.

The only reason I asked was that my friend is very diesel savvy and not into rumors much, his source has been very good in the past, he wanted me to ask here.



Jared

 

[jrobinson2]

There's no way Cummins would add technology to increase reliability with the higher HP ratings and at the same time shoot themselves in the foot with an inferior conrod design. Someone is misinformed.

From Cummins standpoint, not mine, if a sufficiently strong PM rod has 100% reliability at 350hp for 1,000,000 miles how is this "shooting themselves in the foot"? I doubt its a great concern to them how well they hold up to 500HP.

My thought is that they are still forged.



Jared

 

[jcarey]

Look Here:



http://www.everytime.cummins.com/every/applications/ram_reliability.jsp



Exerpt:

The Cummins 610 Turbo Diesel builds upon its reliable reputation with:



Proven technology: most components are carryover, including the High-Pressure Common-Rail fuel system and electronic controls.

In-cylinder combustion and diesel oxidation catalyst solution requires no exhaust gas circulation components.

Premium high-strength Inconel exhaust valves and high-cobalt stelite exhaust valve seals for durability and long life-to-overhaul.

High-strength exhaust manifold with multi-layer gasket between head and manifold.

Forged-steel fracture-split connecting rods.



Jim

 

[nickleinonen]

The 7. 3 Powerstroke diesel in the Fords used PM rods the last few years it was produced, its widely known in the performance diesel industry that these need to be replaced with the stronger forged rods from the earlier engines when the HP approaches the 500 mark

there were some over on the dieselstop that windowed their blocks with the PM rods with much less than 500hp [i remember one with just a 100 chip, on a 275 engine, so that's at ±375 crank hp]

 

[thejeepdude]

From Cummins standpoint, not mine, if a sufficiently strong PM rod has 100% reliability at 350hp for 1,000,000 miles how is this "shooting themselves in the foot"? I doubt its a great concern to them how well they hold up to 500HP.

My thought is that they are still forged.

Because they already had a technology and material that was more than adequate for 350HP for 1000000 miles. It would cost more to change this process than they would save by using a cheaper design. There would be no point in changing, especially since market demands will force them to increase the power even more over the years. Besides, they're still forged, so quit playing devil's advocate!

 

[JHardwick]

Powdered metal really isn't an inferior design anyway, just everyone hates the words, "Powdered Metal" because they don't know what they talking about. That said, I've never heard of them being used in a Diesel and I'd imagine that the CTD in our trucks uses forged steel.

PM is inferior to forged buy mat not be inferior in a particular application.

 

[QWaller]

It is nice to know that no one gets to see too many rods from a CTD!

 

[JCleary]

It is nice to know that no one gets to see too many rods from a CTD!

I'm impressed by this as well. I know of a guy with 600+hp in a 1st gen.



What impresses me is that the bottom end has 230k+ miles and is totally stock.

 

[lmills]

the thing that made the powdered metal rod break in the PSD's was because the design was not taken into consideration. The PM rods were made identical to the forged rods. If a powdered metal rod is made properly it will hold a very considerable amount of HP. Gassers are using them up in the 700 and 800 HP range and higher.

 

[Hohn]

Yes, it wasn't so much a material flaw as it was a design flaw.



PM is here to stay-- it's the latest tech. If properly designed, it's plenty strong.



jlh

 

[thejeepdude]

Yes, it wasn't so much a material flaw as it was a design flaw.

Agreed. My point was only that there would be no reason for Cummins to switch to a PM rod because R&D costs for the new design would outweigh any production cost benefits, if there are any.

 

[DPelletier]

I have a friend that was told by his small town diesel performance shop that the '05 Cummins engine has powdered metal connecting rods like the late 7. 3 powersrokes and have a HP limit around 450 HP. They said this is new for '05 and one of the larger aftermarket suppliers has seen failures around 500HP.

Anybody heard anything about PM rods in Cummins? Is this BS?



Jared

So the correct answer seems to be: No, nobody here has heard anything about Cummins going to a powdered metal rod. I share the general concensus that this is most likely BS.



Dave

 

[jwilliams3]

What exactly does powdered metal look like in its formed state?

Color, texture etc?

3rd gen engines are using the same rod they have been using since their beginning.

The older engine (ISB VP44) along with the 12 valve used the machined cap rods.

 

[rbattelle]

hijack

I wonder if the 555 engines have Inconel exhaust valves...



-Ryan

 

[DPelletier]

Ryan,

I thought that was part of the changes for the 600 to deal with the extra heat required for the catalyst (obtained by the additional injection event).



... ... then again, according to my wife, I'm frequently wrong!



Dave