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Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Power Comes and Goes

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Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Exhaust brake idea...

Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) State Inspection & EZ

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Hi guys,



I have a large fleet of buses and this one P-pumped engine has power one day and not the next.



All the usual has been performed; several filter changes/lift pump psi tested twice (both times 24psi) boost is at 13psi driving up a long hill @ WOT.



Because this probelm comes and goes (during the last two years or better) I'm assuming it's a governor problem?????????? :confused:



I don't know what for governor this engine has. The engine has 98,000 miles.



The p-pumped engines as a rule, are extreamly limited in the fuel they deliver on school buses, but this one will run about 60 top speed and then only 40 top speed.



Thanks in advance guys for any help.



-S
 
Greenleaf;

Not many replies, have you check the OVERFLOW VALVE? maybe its shot. The P-pumps should be close to 26-30 psI. If you can disassemble the valve the spring can be stretched to 0. 550 thousands, or just a shade over 1/2". but be careful doing this, don't break the spring. When I do mine I just ~massage~ it. Make those busses into hot rods and move the plates and screw down the counter weights down a click 000000or??????? just a thought.
 
Yes,I have checked all that. Replaced the overflow valve. Checked the shut-off solenoid and linkage. Throttle linkage too.



I asked the former Maint. supervisor, whom I replaced, and he told me that it's the driver. He/she will be pushing down on the fuel peddle and at the same time the brake peddle. They set directly next to each other with very LITTLE space in between the two.



I know very littl about the P-Pump gov assembly. I have modified the VE pumped buses and now everyone want's to drive them :)



The P-Pump gov assembly is held on with headless screws and I don't know what to do with a fuel plate even if I got one apart :(



I just drove it and it seemed fine (for a low powered P-Pumped bus that is) I'd luv to turn the power up on a P-Pump somehow.



Scott
 
Ck. the afc (air fuel control or you may also be familiar with the term "aneroid" they are synonimous for our discussion )housing on the top and back of the governor housing, remove the AFC plug that takes the 8mm (5/16" will work in a pinch) hex wrench.



Also remove the afc signal line from the manifold or turbo compressor and use regulated shop air on the back of the afc (say 20 psi max). When adding air does the the afc link/shaft move forward smoothly thru your inspection window? If its sticky or stuck you have found a problem.



I suggest that you may have some sort of throttle linkage limiter to limit road speed. I suppose a governor weight/spring package could limit the speed etc. It may be as simple as the "high idle" limit screw being backed off more than other p-pump applications, which would be like a block under the go pedal.



Here is some commentary on safe methods for uprating the pump/engine output FWIW.



Not sure what your adm policy is on emmisions tampering or maybe its better "to ask forgiveness than permission. . "



The stock pump could likely be Bomb'd (better off modified baby) by several things if tampering doesn't concern you.



The tamper screw in the upper left corner of the afc housing can be removed to allow housing removal. The cam/torq. /fuel plate will be staring at you now.

It could be shifted forward for more fueling at the result of additional emmissions and egt's.



See this site:



http://www.tstproducts.com/INSRUCT98.pdf



This is how you would modify things to keep EGT's in ck. etc. by adding a perf. fuel plate that is calibrated for your engine and pump to safely add some fuel w/out excessive emmisions (nox and particles) and egt's. Simple sliding of the plate (forward) and tampering with the high idle screw can increase power somewhat but not nearly like a perf. fuel plate can. It can also result in soaring EGT's in many pump applications. I'm betting the bus doens't have a pyro and if it did the driver wouldn't likely watch it. . so be forewarned. You like to rebuild B-Series right? ;)



You can also look at the instructions (above) on loosening the star wheel for additional mid-range umph at the cost of extra fuel smoke and also the the pre-boost fueling screw.



I recently went thru a similar complaint with a 230 pump that was added to a Ram, the AFC would intermittantly stick shut, but was difficult to replicate that that was actually the problem. The owner asked us to jerk the pump and send it to the pump shop out of duress and frustration. The pump stand found the problem eventually.



The things previously suggested are also excellent suggestions.



I would also remove the shut down solenoid and wire it up for a test drive and note if solenoid full up equals pump linkage in "full fuel" vs shut down position. You could also zip tie the solenoid up to see if the hold coil on the solenoid allows the solenoid plunger to drop somewhat or slowly across a similated road test (bus route).



Let us know what you find!
 
WOW! Thank you much!! That's what I need.



I'll be looking into this as time permits. There are 25 buses here.



As far as emmissions tampering, we have no tests and I'm in complete control over the buses so in isn't like someone would tell me I'm a bad guy :) Besides, the VE pump buses are the same as my engine in the Dodge so I just shaved a little off the gov linkage and upped the throttle throw for some more grunt :) No one knows but me, and the driver has a big smile now.



These buses are way underpowered anyhow. They are very "conservative" in terms of HP.



Thanks again.



Scott
 
Greenleaf I would check what McDowra says. A friend's 12-valve did the same thing and finally discovered the shutoff wasn't pulling up fully to the "Run" position.



Speaking of buses & tampering, a friend who works at a local injection shop says pretty much every 12-valve bus in the Kennewick School District fleet has had the fuel turned up. I noticed there's a few smokey buses around here. The fleet manager likes to keep his ladies happy. If Daisy's bus doesn't get off the line as fast as Mabel's, then he'll have to slide the gov. plate forward a bit more on her bus to keep her happy :-laf
 
We pretty much take life slow and easy here with the buses. Only problem is that we have this one hill that buses CAN'T make it up. Yep, it's true! I didn't believe it untill I tried it myself. No go! And it's a road we have kids on too. ROFLMAO



I built this one bus up with a new head/injectors/pump mods etc. It needed some pretty serious engine work anyway. Just becaue it can don't mean the gals have to drive it like a race car.



I'd simply like to bump up a couple P-Pumps for fun, but it takes time away from my regular maintenance :(



Scott
 
The waste gate is seized. Not sure open or closed. I'm thinking open. The lever is rotated up near the top. I have the same turbo on the bench and looking at this one it would seem the turbo on the bus to be stuck in open position.



Only buils 13 # boost at WOT on a long steep hill. A bus just like this one shows 22psi.



The air actuator leaks air out the hole the rod comes out of. Begins to move at 15 psi and is at full travel at 30 psi.



I'm gussing the turbo isn't making enough boost to signal to the governor to go into full fueling??



The gov linkage moves internally when I put some shop air into the AFC. About 14/15 psi it moves the internal parts.



-S
 
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