programmer

[EFRAM]

Ok, I need some input on this... I have been thinking about getting a Smarty Jr programmer. The truck currently has 344,000 miles on it. As far as I know it has original injectors & CP3. Since I have owned it I have put a CAI, AirDog (100), full length 4" turbo back exhaust with a PacBrake, and I have a full set of gauges (RP, BOOST, FP, PYRO). I am afraid/worried that this may screw my truck up. Need a little insight. All I am looking for is about 40hp gain for fuel mileage and a little bit more ooomph.

 

[cerberusiam]

Adding ANYTHING is taking a chance, even more so with that many miles. That said, smart usage of a programmer and your right foot will mitigate potential problems.

 

[EFRAM]

That is what I am thinking. I don't drive it like I stole it. With the price of them I am trying to see if it is worth it or not. If I get one it would be set on the lowest setting which is 40hp. From what I can tell the truck has been really taken care of by previous owner and myself. It was a older gentleman's truck who did hot shotting. When I bought the truck it had 230,000 miles on it. Since I have owned it I haven't had any major drive line issues. And that is why I am even considering a Smarty Jr.

 

[cerberusiam]

Do you have a manual or auto trans?

 

[EFRAM]

Manual, The clutch has been upgraded to a HD valair clutch & hydraulics

 

[cerberusiam]

You should be fine with the 40 HP and even a bit more then. You added the AD which will supply the CP-3 adequately so fuel pressure is not an issue. All you really need to worry about is the injectors now if it ran its whole life with stock filtration. A lot of the hotshooters pump into a bed tank then filled from there filter to 2-3 um, if that is the case then the injectors can go a lot longer than with the stock filters.

 

[EFRAM]

thanks for the insight. before I got the AD i would change the factory fuel filter every other oil change and i don't know if it helped or not but I put a inline filter upstream from the stock filter housing and it would get changed every oil change. The oil at the time of service still looks very good every single time. you can read the writing on the dipstick without wiping the oil off.

 

[BDaugherty]

My original onjectors were so worn out at 250k that the truck was sluggish even with the TST. New injectors (50hp) woke my truck up in an umbelieveable way.

 

[EFRAM]

the odd thing is that even with the miles on her she is still quite responsive and quick. I cannot afford new injectors right now but I have been eyeballing a set from Exergy (50hp), I figured when I do get some coin saved up I will do them and a new CP3. And while I have the valve cover off have a inspection done. But at this point I am just curious if i would be ok with a Smarty Jr.. good or bad?

 

[RVTRKN]

Moderation is the key with programers as Cerberusiam has pointed out, watch your EGT though, it will run hotter with the programming.

 

[EFRAM]

I do have a pyro it is post turbo. I have read that as long as post turbo temps are at 950 or below i should be good to go. I would have went pre-turbo but i was concerned about them breaking off and going through the turbine.

 

[RVTRKN]

I was concerned with my Pyro, installing it pre turbo for that very reason, but in all the years here on TDR and other Cummins sites, I've never heard of that happening. That doesn't mean its never going to happen, but unlikely it will.

 

[cerberusiam]

I have read that as long as post turbo temps are at 950 or below i should be good to go.

Short answer, no. That number is only good for a 12V in a specific stock fueling scenario, any post turbo number is only good for stock fueling. The differences between pre and post turbo can vary from 300 to 600+ degrees depending on a lot of different factors. Even a pre-turbo reading as an estimate that doesn't tell you the real situation, like heat soak in the piston and cylinder temp.

The closer you can get the probe to the exhaust port the more exact the readings will be. If you choose the flange at the turbo where you are reading combined rear cylinders it will be lower than picking #6 as close to the head as possible. The readings will still be an estimate bu it is the best that can be had.

In 20+ years driving these trucks with probes in the exhaust have never seen or even heard of a probe tip breaking off and doing any damage, aside from the competition arena where more thna just the probe metled and broke.

Your choice on location, just keep in mind that 950 number is not set in stone and totally invalid with a programmer that adds fuel and timing.

 

[EFRAM]

we are starting to get a little bit off topic here.

I think that 600* temp swing is a little bit unrealistic 300 is more realistic from my experience. I have been working with high horsepower/high displacement engines ranging from 600 to 3700hp for the last 12 years. I currently work with Caterpillar 3516B and EMD 645 high displacement diesels for a living ranging from 2200hp to 3700hp. on those @ 100% load there is about 300* difference pre turbo vs post turbo. And they take a bigger load than our engines would ever think about handling.

 

[RVTRKN]

Ok, I need some input on this... Need a little insight. All I am looking for is about 40hp gain for fuel mileage and a little bit more ooomph.

Well you asked, the difference in the engines you have worked on are apples to oranges here. The CTD in the light truck market is not the same as the 3700 HP diesels your working with. Every time CTD up the HP, they also changed valve seats and type of seats as well as piston configurations and I'm sure there's more, but I'm not a CTD engineer. you asked for our opinion about adding a programer and the issues involved. The reports on programing vrs EGT have easily gone over the CTD recomendations and if it were my truck it would be pre turbo. It is your opinion and CTD, so please post the new baseline temperatures for other members here that have a post turbo sensor.

I'm not tring to start a ******* contest, just repling in a honest way, no offense taken I hope.

 

[EFRAM]

I don't mean to come off as snippy so please don't take it that way. All I was orginally asking is given the mileage that my truck is showing would a small hp gain say 40hp be worth the risk or not. Not going for smoking everywhere just tryin to squeeze a few more mpg's out of the old girl..

 

[cerberusiam]

The 5.9 ISB in your truck is so much different than what you are working on the comaprisons are not even close. EVERY engine is different in EVERY configuration, what you see on a 2500 HP engine on a hydraulic pump is no where near what the ISB does with emissions and on-road capabilities in a truck.

The 900 degrees and 300 difference is what a stock fueled 250 HP ISB would run in an F650 with 4.88 gears grossing somewhere around 35k GCVW. Definitely not what a 325 ISB will run in Dodge 3500 grossing half that. A stock fueled ISB 600 will bump 1600 degrees if you have the probe within 4" of the #6 exhaust port, somewhere around 1400-1450 right at the turbo with a 3 cylinder mix. That is STOCK fueling with no programmer, they are built to run that way. If you try to use 950 you will be out of the throttle on a hard pull complaining something is wrong and it is getting too hot.

Tha 1600 degrees in the exhaust manifold is likely in execess of 2500 degrees in the cylinder on a piston that has drawbacks when it comes to extended heat soak.

You cannot talk adding power without considering EGT's and timing. Doing so will just leave you sitting with a melted piston or 2 wondering what happened. EGT's, where to read them and the relative accuracy of the numbers ARE dead on track if you want to tune the engine correctly. Many people have slagged a piston at the 1250 mark at the turbo when they pushed the time factor too far and heat soaked the piston.

Add a programmer and you can toss all the baselines out the window and start over finding the limits.

 

[EFRAM]

My baseline post turbo temp after engine has reached is operating temp is 300 degrees @ idle. The hottest I have ever gotten it was 900 925 @ WOT. That was with a 35ft gooseneck and a 1066IH with a front end loader going up a very long and steep grade. i remember reading some where on here that 1250 was the danger number. And since it is pretty well a stock truck i try to stay below 950 and that is @ a 300* temp drop. The only thing "performance" wise I have done is let her breathe a little bit better. also this engine is a 305hp engine.

 

[cerberusiam]

The hottest I have ever gotten it was 900 925 @ WOT. That was with a 35ft gooseneck and a 1066IH with a front end loader going up a very long and steep grade.

That was probably 1400 degrees or better in the exhaust manifold. with retarded timing. Like I said, the numbers are not static and cannot be transferred. At least with the 305 engine you have a little better piston that will take a little more heat. Add a lttle fuel and crank the timing in for better efficiency and at 900 post turbo you will still slag a piston.

 

[EFRAM]

lol all i am looking for is a little more mpg!! I don't really tow much anymore and when I do it is usually something that is light for the old girl. I have pretty well put her in retirement but it still makes cheap power for when i need it. I was asked here while back when i was going to sell her but since she is paid for and i would take a beating if i did sell her i think i will just keep her. So now i just use it for the daily commute and long trips (because i can go over 2000 on a single fill up).