Propane injection...?

[Gary - K7GLD]

I used the Power Shot 2000 setup on my '91, and it worked great - other makers have copied most of Keith's features, but his is still best and most reasonably priced in my opinion.



BUT, now I have the new truck, and have removed the propane setup from the old truck, expecting to install it on the new one after I get a few more miles on it for warranty purposes. PROBLEM is, it SEEMS as tho hardly anyone is using propane on the later trucks, and I don't know if it's due to unusual problems with the later 24 valve engines, or whether it's just the accepted fad now to simply go for the various "magic boxes" instead of propane.



I recognize the potential dangers of propane use if abused or improperly set up - but that's really not all that different from other more common power-enhancing methods, and I'm unsure if the later engines might be more sensitive to propne injection than the older ones?



Sure would like to use the propane on my new truck at some point - but certainly don't wanna cause problems if there's some unique problem associated with propane in the newer engines that I'm unaware of...



I've done a search on the subject, as it applies to the newer engines - but haven't really determined anything specific as to why or whether propane is/is not used as much on the later engines...



Any comments?

 

[TomGolden]

Gary,



I have seen lots of previous posts and talked with several members that have mentioned that especially the ETH motors, which I see in your sig you have now, are very easily damaged by propane. It is at least partially due to the slightly higher compression ratio the ETH has over the ETC and older engines. Several ETH owners have blown head gaskets using propane, and maybe even worse... .



Tom

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Thanks for the reply Tom - but it's my understanding that the ETH has a 17. 2 to 1 CR, wheras my '91 has 17 to 1 - wouldn't think . 2 increase would cause much potential difference?



I also thought that the later Cummins engines had gone to a better head gasket - but maybe the different head design with he 24 valves has an inherent weakness where head gaskets are concerned?



OR, is it just that guys get sorta carried away with the propane and figure"if a little is good, too much should be about right"... ?

 

[LSMITH]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q



OR, is it just that guys get sorta carried away with the propane and figure"if a little is good, too much should be about right"... ?

LOL, I think you might be on to something!!

 

[TomGolden]

I had heard the ETH was at 17. 5:1 compression, but yeah, you wouldn't think that little would make a difference. I'm really going by what I have heard, both on the site and at TDR events. I don't have any personal experience with it on my truck, so not really sure what other issue may exist for our motors... .



Tom

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

WELL, it's hard to know what's best - I really think that the main reason for the lack of propane usage in these later engines is mostly related to the fact that their use of more electronic controls motivates fellas to the add-on boxes as the chosen power booster instead of the propane that was more practical in the older mechanical engines. It seem likely that the more refined tuning derived from modern electronics might call for a bit more restraint and caution in the application of propane injection, but I suspect that a decent medium shot would probably generate significant power increase, along with the mileage improvement propane injection is also noted for. Not really much to lose, since I already have the setup, and assuming I apply it carefully...



Wish me luck - and any additional comments will be appreciated - especially from those with first-hand experience...

 

[Mundgyver]

Think of propane like drinking. In moderations and small amounts it can be very benificial, but as with drinking, when abused and consumed in great quantities while in a party mode the effects are obvious. All things in responsible moderation are the key to success. Enjoy.

 

[abledog]

Gary



I've had an ATS propane system on my 2001. 5 ETH for over a year without any problems. When I had the system install propane was much cheaper than diesel and I was looking for better fuel milage, the small increased in performance was a side benefit.



Now that the price of propane has gone out of site there not much benefit in using for increasing milage, but theres always that extra 30/35 extra ponies avalible at the push of a button



Terry

 

[MikeR]

Yes there are the very few that have not had a problem, but the vast majority of ETH owners have had head gasket failures from propane use.



Unless its going to be a dyno king or a race rocket, I don't care for propane as a fuel.....

It's an added fuel expense. If diesel is costing me $1. 30, I may as well be paying $1. 70 for fuel if I'm having to supplement with propane. With a timing box or injectors, my fuel bill as a daily use is not changed. To me a $1. 30 is a $1. 30 and that's it. (actually I get 1. 5mpg better than when it was stock).



Just my honest opinion.



-Mike

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Mike sez:



"but the vast majority of ETH owners have had head gasket failures from propane use. "



Is that statement true, or just an individual opinion? If "the vast majority" of propane users really HAVE had gasket failures with its use, what were the conditions? Were they casual, moderate users, or the sled-pulling drag racers? Is propane REALLY an unsafe fuel, even in relative moderation - or is it a killer no matter HOW lightly used?



You see, THAT'S the problem I face in making my choice - there's LOTS of opinion and RUMOR floating around out there, but not a whole lot of documented FACT, including circumstances where actual problems HAVE occurred...



FACT is, even in searching THIS forum for info on propane usage in the later engines, there's very LITTLE first-hand info available - and general personal OPINION is OK - but not really enough to make a decision with...

 

[TomGolden]

Gary, since you don't seem to be getting any first hand ETH propane users responding, maybe in the Product/Accessories section post a poll asking all ETH propane users to respond with the specific info you're after... That seems to be one of the busiest forums here, and so it might just get a little better response.



Tom

 

[KatDiesel]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

Is that statement true, or just an individual opinion? If "the vast majority" of propane users really HAVE had gasket failures with its use, what were the conditions?

Its a common known fact... ... propane use on an ETH is very easy to take out the headgasket.



I know of three people off the top of my head that have had it happen.

 

[jwdeeming]

Gary,

I'm coming up empty too, trying to sort out the propane questions. I don't have an ETH, but I'm not sure that means I am out of the woods. I sure don't want to find out the hard way if it's not necessary.

On another propane thread, someone referred to hearing "detonation", which I am guessing must mean some kind of pre-ignition. If a person started out with a very mild propane injection and eased it upwards, I wonder if you'd hear/feel warning signs before doing the damage.

That's probably too much to hope for, huh?

Good luck - I'm learning with you.

JimD

 

[Opz01]

I run the BullyDog dry verson on a ETC and have it adjusted to give 45 more hp according to the last time I dyno'd. The reason I am piping in is to agree propane is dangerous to head gaskets. Especailly when you are running a timing box. The more advance your timing the less propane you can saftley use with out taking out a head gasket. And yes this works on the opposite side of the scale too. Retard the timing and you can add more propane get more power and not blow a gasket. But everyone else in traffic is going to look at you like... Who farted!

 

[MikeR]

Gary,



Just like Kat says, it is a common known fact among the ETH trucks. I have read every thread over the past year and a half that ever came up of propane installed on an ETH and the "vast majority" that have installed on an ETH have blown the headgasket. That's not an opinion, that's an obsevation that tends to support the fact. No I have not kept notes on if the useage was in moderation or at max level (I don't have THAT much time on my hands). Out of 4 ETH guys that I know, all 4 have popped gaskets.



That was the "fact" part... here's is my "opinion" part...



Propane use for efficiency and a little extra power for everyday use in my opinion is 'old skool' stuff. That's for engines that don't have the toys we have today. The toys we have now you can make better power by just using the fuel that's already there.



I agree that you should put a poll up in the products section. Give it some time for results, not every failed ETH is going to respond in one day.



-Mike

 

[Opz01]

Originally posted by MikeR

Gary,



Just like Kat says, it is a common known fact among the ETH trucks. I have read every thread over the past year and a half that ever came up of propane installed on an ETH and the "vast majority" that have installed on an ETH have blown the headgasket. That's not an opinion, that's an obsevation that tends to support the fact. No I have not kept notes on if the useage was in moderation or at max level (I don't have THAT much time on my hands). Out of 4 ETH guys that I know, all 4 have popped gaskets.



That was the "fact" part... here's is my "opinion" part...



Propane use for efficiency and a little extra power for everyday use in my opinion is 'old skool' stuff. That's for engines that don't have the toys have have today. The toys we have now you can make better power by just using the fuel that's already there.



I agree that you should put a poll up in the products section. Give it some time for results, not every failed ETH is going to respond in one day.



-Mike

I agree Mike thats why now a days the Nitrous Express kit is so popular! Oo.

Opie

 

[abledog]

I guess I'm one of the lucky onesOo. I've ran with the propane system turned on for over six months, the hobbs presure switch is set so that any time the boost pressure is over 5psi the inlet solenoid opens.



I've run propane crusing down the street, pulling my 13,000 5th wheel and on the dyno(330hp on DDs dyno at MM) and never had a problem. I don't baby my truck!



I'm really intrested in hearing from all of the ETH owners that have had problems



Terry



I'm only running 275's and a VA for extra power while towing.