Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Pump Timing

[biggy238]

I talked to a shop today in Somerset (about 30 mi from here)

that does the whole performance diesel bit.



I asked the manager how much it would cost to have my timing bumped and he said that they pull the pump and bench flow it(atleast I thought he said that).



What does this process involve and accomplish?? They seemed very profeccional but I don't really like the Idea of pulling the pump only for them to find something they dislike and would want to repair at my expense. IF pulling the pump yeilds a more exacting outcome, I will go that route, but $250 didn't sound unreasonable when the kits for the DIY guys is almost comparable.



Also when referring to timing, is the 16* total timing or 16* beyond stock timing?



I have much to learn.



Let me know what you think or have dealt with.

 

[Howard Durand]

That sounds like it might be a pretty good deal.

I did my own timing but, as you pointed out, the timing kit cost about what the shop wants for their work.

I am guessing that a "bench flow test" would at least determine if your delivery valves are working as they should.

If you specify 16* timing, that is what you get. I set mine to 15* which is about 3 1/2* greater than stock.

 

[biggy238]

The manager said something about the oem timing and the 16* being the total of oem and the advance. Thats mainly what i'm curious about with the timing.



The timing does increase the degree before TDC doesn't it?



I'm sorry my memory is so vague but I had to deal with a very foolish woman shortly afterword and that encounter has clouded up my whole day.

 

[moparguy]

It's just as Howard posted, 16deg. is the total timing. In this example the injector would fire 16deg before top dead center.



Different pumps require different amounts of additional timing to get to 16. On a 175 hp pump the factory setting is 12. 5 deg. on a 215 pump, 13. 5 (?).

 

[krs]

"and the 16* being the total of oem and the advance"



Don't let them tell you that. It's not ignition timing like a gasser and there's no "advance" other than the injection opening point in the rotation that happens in advance of TDC.



Look at the plate on your pump. t tells you the stock specified timing FOR THAT PUMP. You change that at your own risk, but a few degrees sooner usually won't hurt anything and MIGHT increase fuel milage slightly and top end power a little bit. Most likely you won't really notice any change unless your pump had lost it's factory setting but I've no doubt that you'll THINK you feel something . And of course you can go around saying "I had the timing set at blah, blah" (why couldn't you say that anyway, whether it's reset or not - noone could tell the difference)



Flowing the pump is a good thing to have done because it determines whether or not the pump is performing as it is supposed to. If a pump isn't right nothing else will be right either. $250. is a nice price for bench testing a pump and you get timing along with it because they've got to set it when they put the pump back on the engine. Some places won't vary from the spec. listed on the plate with good reason. The factory determined the best performance is given at the setting and a shop could be liable for any damage caused by changing.

 

[ndurbin]

At the diesel shop I use to work at we charged $300 to adjust the timing. We also pressure checked the intercooler. And did a few other little things (blocked the wastegate and adjusted the AFC housing). But we set them all to about 16-16. 5* timing.



We never pulled a P-pump while I was there but the way the guys talked it was a bear. We pulled mostly sick. 5 pumps and acouple VP44s.



To me $250 sounds pretty decent for adjusting the timing and bench testing the pump.



Nathan

 

[Forrest Nearing]

beware! bench testing the pump sounds like a setup to buy a new one!!! (maybe even the one that they pulled off! LOL!)



if they don't know a P-pump doesn't have any advance, I'd go somewhere else



Forrest

 

[T. Baker]

Dont have them take the pump off! They pumps are good for a million miles +. Leave the pump alone - I garantee nothing is wrong with the pump. Sounds like they are wanting to earn some extra money for nothing. About the only adjustment besides bombing the pump that might need to be done is the idle adjustment and that is a no brainer my grandma can do with a 10mm wrench.

 

[tURBOdIEZEl]

biggy238, had my pump turned up about a month ago! it costed me about 300 bucks. the guy bench tested my pump to make sure it was okay, and advanced my timing as well. he went over just about everything to make sure everything was okay. all in all it was quite the investment... if your gonna get it for 250 thats a steal! just my . 02$

--tex

 

[biggy238]

O.K. Guys i'm getting pretty mixed reviews...

When I said advance, that is what I said. Not him. And when I said it, I meant it as "In advance to TDC"



Sorry for the mix up there.



I'm weary that they will say something is wrong with the pump also.



The only benefeit I see is as TurdoDiezel said, that they just see that it is up to par and i've read some things about making sure that each cylinder recieves the same amount of fuel delivery. He mentioned checking the lift pump for capability.



So which is it



Yea or Nay??



This guy is Nick Harwood, a member of the Association of Diesel Specialists aka ADS (or so his card says) New facility, clean workspace. . ISSPRO dealer.

 

[biggy238]

And it looks like 5 of you have your timing bumped. and is it that i'm young or foolish that I would synthesize a perfomance gain from this?

 

[Howard Durand]

I experienced some performance gain from the timing change along with a few other things that have been done.



As far as what the shop manager is telling you, that is your call. You have to make a decision about his integrity and ability then act accordingly. His price seems reasonable for what he wants to do.

Give him a chance to tell you what will be accomplished by his "bench flow" test and what he might be looking for.

After all, your truck is apparently running OK as it is so you wouldn't think there could be anything seriously wrong with it.

The pump certainly doesn't have to be removed to change the timing.

 

[tURBOdIEZEl]

when my timing was bumped, he made my truck sit over night so all the fluids would drain and the timing would stick. it was deffintley a night and day difference after everything was said and done. now all i need is a 3k gsk cause the truck de-fuels super fast now. lol.

 

[moparguy]

Dodge wanted my truck to be at 12. 5 degs timing, when I checked it I found it at 12 degs. Taking it to 16. 5 degs. rewarded me with 1/2 to 1 additional mpg. May have cleaned up the smoke a bit a low rpms.



Hopefully it lowered the white smoke when cold. We'll see in a few months.



However, it did not change things in a earth shakeing manner. No where near the improvements from plates or injectors.



The CFOs new to us 98, 5spd runs great, I don't know if I'll mess with the timing or not.



Could be if I did as some and took the 95 to 19degs or so I'd have a higher opinion of this adjustment, but I think I leave it where it is out of condideration for the headgasket and bearings.



Good luck, RJR

 

[biggy238]

Now see, Thats a different consideration. Will the compression lead to premature fatigue? My main reason for asking about the timing was the added fue mileage. Anything is nice.



I know alot of things can help power, and this isn't exactly related to the thread, but is there any mod to help bottom end torque/acceleration? I still can't believe what a TPS did for making the power hit the ground in high gear, but it did absolutley nothing for 1st & 2nd gear acceleration. Sounds like a transmission thing to me, but is there anything else I could try for low $$$? I have to pay the truck off before I can bomb It so i'm just researching things and their real world performance.

 

[tURBOdIEZEl]

3kgsk and 10 plate maybe?

 

[Howard Durand]

Where is the governor arm hitting the plate?

When I checked mine, it was hitting the nose of the plate just below the tip.

Following Jim Fulmer's suggestion, I adjusted it to touch the plate on the upper radius of the nose so that when the throttle is pressed the arm immediately starts following the curve.

I noticed considerable improvement in low end acceleration.

I have the #5 plate but this probably holds true on any plate with a fueling curve.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

have the #5 plate but this probably holds true on any plate with a fueling curve.



This is a true statement, if you have a #10 plate you can actually decide were it fuel's hard and de-fuels just by were the arm strikes the plate.



Jim

 

[Andy Redmond]

I would definitely recommend this if performance plates are installed and it still seems slow, fuel mileage on the low side et al. .



I do see quite a few pumps set out of calibration enough to cause even a experienced tuner some grief. Maybe its set on the low side, especially on the oem rack travel spec. . For example, if yours was at 10. 5 mm and oem spec with the Bosch torq. plate is is 13. 5 then you gained some fuel. Hopefully they are fussy type and will get each barrell real close to the other one. BTW a torq. plate usually increased rack travel 2-3 mm, thus the extra fueling. Take your torq. plate so they can do a before and after. . many pump shops like to set a baseline with oem, then the aftermarket parts. .



Another advantage of the bench/pump stand is they can easily moved the timing pin housing on the pump to equal your timing desire (16 deg. it sounds like). So 8 deg. on the pump (it turns 1/2 the speed of the engine).



Plus the r&r to pull the pump off the truck? That's good it they are a quality shop. Double or triple that is the going rate. Ask for the "before and after" sheet the pump tech fills out as its calibrated should you go with them.



Most serious performance junkies will end up with their pump on the stand, even if some time after many of their mods.



I'm running a 887/913 (215 pump) that flows about 15% more fuel than stock and has less smoke than885 pump than I removed, it feels real strong. .



Good luck in your decision.