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Question for dzlpwr
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Yes they do want to know does that mean you won't tell us dzlpwr
I spent a lot of time and money learning this stuff and trying different things out. There are secrets that pump builders keep between themselves and it would be too complicated for me to even explain without seeing it for yourselves. Even though some of you are smart enough in this field to figure it out. I will tell you that it takes alot of time at the test stand and some knowledge about these things. I will tell you however that it is possible to build a 300 hp VE. My buddy at work who specializes in VE and inline pumps has built one to flow enough fuel to make 300 hp. This is can be very hard and time consuming to do. I would have done this to my pump but time did not permit me and i don't see it as being practical for me and what i need the truck to do. There is a reason why you don't see anybody selling 300 hp pumps. Even on a 200 hp plus pump, the lines begin to get so hot from fuel flow at WOT that you cant hardly touch them. This can also cause detonation b/c the fuel is so hot when it enters the combustion chamber. My service manager tried to see how much fuel he could get out of a VE a long time ago and when they installed it on the truck it litterally blew the lines apart from fuel flow.
Whoa... what??
The lines rusty, perhaps?
I wonder how many CCs it would take to explode the lines?
Last edited:
Verrrrrrry interesting dzlpwr!!!!!!!!! Seems we could fabricate larger diameter high pressure lines, right? In fact, if what you're saying is accurate that should be the next step. Nascar Mark dynoed at 308, and must have been on the limits of flow capabilities. In other words, the barrier he was pushing against might not simply have been the pump output, but additionally, restricted flow through the high pressure lines. What do you reckon the VE could put out, hp wise, if the lines offered no resistance? And share your info, don't assume we cannot comprehend it, please. That's what this site is about. And I believe you'll discover there's a lot of smart fellows lurking around here. Thanks, Henry
HFletcher,
I don't think rust had anything to do with this b/c the truck that he installed the pump on was an 89' and it was when this truck was still brand new. He didn't blow the lines right away but when he was pulling a trailer through colorado. I couldn't tell you if he had gauges or not but i do know that he was very impressed with the power and could have been pushing it very far. I too, have thought about making larger diameter lines, and I would have to do some research b/c it is possible that larger lines were used in a higher horespower application. There are a ton of applications available throughout the years for cummins engines. You would have to make absolutely sure that they were all the same length and it would be difficult to make them yourself. Let me talk with my boss to see what he thinks b/c I really have no idea what other problems you could run into with larger lines. Using a larger injector such as the POD's will make a big difference though b/c they allow more fuel to flow with less restriction, therefore, creating less heat. On the test bench you have to use a special calibration injector which simulates the factory ones.
I don't think rust had anything to do with this b/c the truck that he installed the pump on was an 89' and it was when this truck was still brand new. He didn't blow the lines right away but when he was pulling a trailer through colorado. I couldn't tell you if he had gauges or not but i do know that he was very impressed with the power and could have been pushing it very far. I too, have thought about making larger diameter lines, and I would have to do some research b/c it is possible that larger lines were used in a higher horespower application. There are a ton of applications available throughout the years for cummins engines. You would have to make absolutely sure that they were all the same length and it would be difficult to make them yourself. Let me talk with my boss to see what he thinks b/c I really have no idea what other problems you could run into with larger lines. Using a larger injector such as the POD's will make a big difference though b/c they allow more fuel to flow with less restriction, therefore, creating less heat. On the test bench you have to use a special calibration injector which simulates the factory ones.
Henry,
This is most likely one of those times when my mouth should be shut, but I've never shy'd away from proving my stupidity or sharing so..... the larger nozzles will release a higher volume of fuel, faster. The heat would be generated by the pump cycle and pressure.
It's not the actual movement of the fluid but the process of pumping it that generates heat... . Look at the charge air system, that is the process of pumping/compressing air... and the effect/necessity of the intercooler on that process.
No, I don't think lines is the magic pill, or really a pill at all... .
There are some more answers here, it needs a tad more thinking and such.
Maybe duty cycle, pump stroke, supply pump pressures, high pressure side/delivery valve combinations, cam plate lift,overflow restriction alterations,...
For example, the low pressure(delivery) side... the pressure control valve is connected through a passage to the upper outlet recess. It is a spring loaded spool-type valve with which the pump's internal pressure can be varied as a function of the quantity of fuel being delivered.
If fuel pressure increases beyond a given value, the valve spool opens the return passage so that the fuel can flow back to the supply pump's suction side. (*Note* what other item shuts off the return fuel flow and effectively raises the internal pump pressure if only for a short time?)
If the pressure is too low, the return passage is closed by the spring. Lastly, one other item I mentioned is in play here...
The overflow restriction... It is screwed into the injection pump's governor cover and connected to the pumps interior... . now,
this thing permits a variable amount of fuel to return back to the fuel tank through a narrow passage. For the fuel, the restriction represents a 'flow restistance' that maintains the pressure inside the injection pump. Being as inside the pump a precisely defined pressure is required as a function of pump speed, the overflow restriction AND flow-control valve are PRECISELY matched to each other.
Now, after all that mouthful, I can see dzlpwr's point..... the effectiveness of this would HAVE to be determined on a pump stand.
See were I'm going with this.....
There are a number of other items that merit investigation if we want to hit high HP numbers and stay with the original 1st gen equipment like the VE.
edit: I should also mention that I've tossed out ideas or thoughts prematurely in the past and while some have been right (lucky?) some have been entirely off base, so I'm trying to atleast have some grounds for commenting, before doing so. It's hard to know whether you're helping or hindering sometimes guys. Recently I've decided to try and research a little more or think things thru a bit more than previously, but at the same time, if there's a bunch of us thinking, investigating, testing then more gets done, faster... . what to do, what to do.
Ok so that's why I tossed out this idea above. Basically from an interest of more heads are better than one...
bob.
This is most likely one of those times when my mouth should be shut, but I've never shy'd away from proving my stupidity or sharing so..... the larger nozzles will release a higher volume of fuel, faster. The heat would be generated by the pump cycle and pressure.
It's not the actual movement of the fluid but the process of pumping it that generates heat... . Look at the charge air system, that is the process of pumping/compressing air... and the effect/necessity of the intercooler on that process.
No, I don't think lines is the magic pill, or really a pill at all... .
There are some more answers here, it needs a tad more thinking and such.
Maybe duty cycle, pump stroke, supply pump pressures, high pressure side/delivery valve combinations, cam plate lift,overflow restriction alterations,...
For example, the low pressure(delivery) side... the pressure control valve is connected through a passage to the upper outlet recess. It is a spring loaded spool-type valve with which the pump's internal pressure can be varied as a function of the quantity of fuel being delivered.
If fuel pressure increases beyond a given value, the valve spool opens the return passage so that the fuel can flow back to the supply pump's suction side. (*Note* what other item shuts off the return fuel flow and effectively raises the internal pump pressure if only for a short time?)
If the pressure is too low, the return passage is closed by the spring. Lastly, one other item I mentioned is in play here...
The overflow restriction... It is screwed into the injection pump's governor cover and connected to the pumps interior... . now,
this thing permits a variable amount of fuel to return back to the fuel tank through a narrow passage. For the fuel, the restriction represents a 'flow restistance' that maintains the pressure inside the injection pump. Being as inside the pump a precisely defined pressure is required as a function of pump speed, the overflow restriction AND flow-control valve are PRECISELY matched to each other.
Now, after all that mouthful, I can see dzlpwr's point..... the effectiveness of this would HAVE to be determined on a pump stand.
See were I'm going with this.....
There are a number of other items that merit investigation if we want to hit high HP numbers and stay with the original 1st gen equipment like the VE.
edit: I should also mention that I've tossed out ideas or thoughts prematurely in the past and while some have been right (lucky?) some have been entirely off base, so I'm trying to atleast have some grounds for commenting, before doing so. It's hard to know whether you're helping or hindering sometimes guys. Recently I've decided to try and research a little more or think things thru a bit more than previously, but at the same time, if there's a bunch of us thinking, investigating, testing then more gets done, faster... . what to do, what to do.
Ok so that's why I tossed out this idea above. Basically from an interest of more heads are better than one...
bob.
Well, it may well be that at higher volumes the larger injector line would be a complimenting factor. I believe the 2nd Gens have larger lines, but again, I'm honestly not 100% positive on that.
If the inner diameter of the line remains fixed and you want to move more fuel thru it, you need to increase the pressure, at least that's my thoughts... .
The only other option is larger ID on the lines, right. . ? wrong. . ?
Dzlpwr makes a really good point here too... I absolutely agree that this is one situation were it is almost impossible to have quantifyable or imperical proof that this mod or that mod has made things better, and by how much.
Bigger injectors, no problem, more smoke, more EGT's, more SOP power, etc etc. right...
With what we're trying to do, I think that we are moving in modest increments and while some will produce noticable results like maybe cone contour changes, others will be subtle enough to require instrumentation to confirm...
Does ANY of this make sense or do I need to take my medication???
Geezz, I gotta headache...
bob.
If the inner diameter of the line remains fixed and you want to move more fuel thru it, you need to increase the pressure, at least that's my thoughts... .
The only other option is larger ID on the lines, right. . ? wrong. . ?
Dzlpwr makes a really good point here too... I absolutely agree that this is one situation were it is almost impossible to have quantifyable or imperical proof that this mod or that mod has made things better, and by how much.
Bigger injectors, no problem, more smoke, more EGT's, more SOP power, etc etc. right...
With what we're trying to do, I think that we are moving in modest increments and while some will produce noticable results like maybe cone contour changes, others will be subtle enough to require instrumentation to confirm...
Does ANY of this make sense or do I need to take my medication???
Geezz, I gotta headache...
bob.
I've also noted the "230 pump" in some sigs..... not many though, but a couple.
I'd like to go back to the line burst comments too.....
Very precise 'pressure relief' in the injector lines is necessary at the end of the injection process. (usually done by either delivery valve (plunger type valve) with return flow restriction, OR, a constant pressure valve. )
This is done to ensure precise/exact closing of the injection nozzle at the end of the injection process. This process allows for the line pressure and pump head to equalize.
The process of accomplishing this pressure relief results in pressue wave(s) which are reflected back at the DV.
This reflected pressure wave can cause the DV to actually open again. . or... cause vacuum 'phases' in the high-pressure fuel line(s).
Now, these processes can result in post-injection of fuel with attendant increases in exhaust emissions or cavitation and wear in the injection line or at the nozzle.
To stop this from happening the DV is provided with a restriction bore, which is only effective in the direction of return flow.
This return-flow restriction comprises a valve plate and a pressure spring which is arranged so that the restriction is ineffective in the delivery direction, but, in the return direction, dampening comes into effect to reduce or eliminate the harmful cavitation or post-injection of more fuel.
On constant high-speed direct-injection engines, it is often the case that the "retraction volume" resulting from the retraction piston on the delivery-valve plunger is not sufficient to reliably prevent cavitation, secondary injection, and some combustion-gas blowback into the nozzle-and-holder assembly.
In this case, a constant-pressure valve is fitted, which relieves the high-pressure system (inj. line and nozzle-and-holder assembly) by means of a single-acting non-return valve which can be set to a given pressure, e. g. : say 60bar.
Having said all of that, maybe what happened is that the extreme increase in fuel flow/pressures were not matched with the correct delivery valve, or constant pressure valve.
Cavitation and or secondary injection/combustion-gas blowback would likely be sufficient in a cumulative effects to cause what happened... . either that, or the lines were crappy
Bob.
I'd like to go back to the line burst comments too.....
Very precise 'pressure relief' in the injector lines is necessary at the end of the injection process. (usually done by either delivery valve (plunger type valve) with return flow restriction, OR, a constant pressure valve. )
This is done to ensure precise/exact closing of the injection nozzle at the end of the injection process. This process allows for the line pressure and pump head to equalize.
The process of accomplishing this pressure relief results in pressue wave(s) which are reflected back at the DV.
This reflected pressure wave can cause the DV to actually open again. . or... cause vacuum 'phases' in the high-pressure fuel line(s).
Now, these processes can result in post-injection of fuel with attendant increases in exhaust emissions or cavitation and wear in the injection line or at the nozzle.
To stop this from happening the DV is provided with a restriction bore, which is only effective in the direction of return flow.
This return-flow restriction comprises a valve plate and a pressure spring which is arranged so that the restriction is ineffective in the delivery direction, but, in the return direction, dampening comes into effect to reduce or eliminate the harmful cavitation or post-injection of more fuel.
On constant high-speed direct-injection engines, it is often the case that the "retraction volume" resulting from the retraction piston on the delivery-valve plunger is not sufficient to reliably prevent cavitation, secondary injection, and some combustion-gas blowback into the nozzle-and-holder assembly.
In this case, a constant-pressure valve is fitted, which relieves the high-pressure system (inj. line and nozzle-and-holder assembly) by means of a single-acting non-return valve which can be set to a given pressure, e. g. : say 60bar.
Having said all of that, maybe what happened is that the extreme increase in fuel flow/pressures were not matched with the correct delivery valve, or constant pressure valve.
Cavitation and or secondary injection/combustion-gas blowback would likely be sufficient in a cumulative effects to cause what happened... . either that, or the lines were crappy
Bob.
TTT
BOB
BOB
How many ccs was that pump putting out before it blew the lines?
Hmmmm... . what is stock "spec" for the pump??? Anyone know for sure???
Bob.
Bob.
After a bit of poking around it seems the stock output for the VE is approx 140 - 145cc/1000 stokes... .
Anyone... ????
Bob.
Anyone... ????
Bob.
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
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Subscribe
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Back Issues
Subscription Status
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