Questions for any residential/commercial electrician.

[QRTRHRS]

I missed the power company's engineer today. I had called about running new underground service to my barn. He suggested to my wife that we upgrade the home service to avoid commercial rates. I have to call him in the morning but maybe someone can give me some guideance. An upgrade sounds good. I can take my time wiring the barn myself as opposed to paying a contractor to do it more timely.



Assuming the home upgrade would be to go from a 200amp to 400amp service, typically would the underground feed need to be upgraded? The house is about 18 years old. I think the feed is in 2" PVC coming in from the pole. I need to look closer in the morning at the pole end. Maybe I can see what guage it is.



My 200amp box is maxed now so I would have no problem putting it in the barn and putting a new box in the house. I need a box in the barn anyway. Without measuring, running a line to the barn would be maybe 100-125 foot as opposed to 300-400 or so for a new service.



Mostly, I wanted a seperate meter and billing for the barn so I could track it accurately for a business expense. Could I put some kind of line meter in the circuit and track it manually? TIA

 

[illflem]

I'm not an electrician by title but know in my area that your responsibly for the wiring ends at the meter. On the powerline side of the meter it's the power company's responsibility for upgrades and problems, they might figure it into what they charge you for a new installation though.



My power company (or maybe it's the code guys) won't let us run a feed from the meter to another building if it's more than 100 feet, you have to have a new service. This is sort of a newer rule and may not apply to your area.



You can buy used watt hour meters from most electrical supply houses or your power company for cheap and put them wherever you want. Last one I bought was $35. The meter can (socket) will cost more than the meter. I've done this several times to separate ag pumps that draw power from a residential source to keep the usage sorted out.

 

[QRTRHRS]

Thanks Bill,



I spoke with the engineer about an hour ago. I know you folks out there in Montana don't have much good to say about PPL but I like them here. He said the house would have to go to 320 and would need new wire from the pole. The underground has conduit at both ends but may not all the way. He said they did that to save money on the install and protect the open cable. I would have to dig it up to check. He also told me the same about the meter. In fact, they are replacing the meters with ones that transmit the data over the lines eliminating the meter reader jobs. So extra meters are easy to come by.



I can run the new 3" conduit for a barn feed myself including burial with a line through to pull a bigger line, etc, etc. They used to have to inspect the ditch. Being I can do it in stages, I can do a lot of the work myself and save some money. The commercial rate will be a writeoff. It gets down to which will be more cost efficient over the long term. I have to go over all this with my electrician. I can lay out and run circuits and all the simple stuff. I let the box and big hookups and all for the experts.



We must not have that 100 foot rule here. As I said, the engineer suggested feeding from the house and you can easily see that it is over 100'.



Something else I might mention PPL is doing. They have in place already and are testing at both residential and commercial levels, a broadband system using the power grid. It looks viable (money maker) so perhaps it will make it's way to everyone stuck with a phone modem.

 

[KSyme]

You don't have to run conduit all the way, just where it comes out off the ground to protect it. Use direct bury cable.

You also mentioned your 200 amp panel is maxed out, do mean no more room for breakers or you are drawing a constant 200 amps and need to increase? 200 amps is the limit on direct hook-up meter sockets. If more than 200 you have to use CT metering which is indirect metering. Uses shunts on the cable to pick up amp useage. This costs big bucks.

If your house requires more than 200 amps it must be a manchion. Thats all that is installed out here with all electric heat and apliance's.

You want a comercial rate for yor shop? Check with the power com. and find out which rate is cheaper. Out here on REC, the commercial rate is more than the residential. In town on private power co. the commercial rate is less than residential.

Check out having a new service installed right to your shop.

That way you are billed seperate for business accounting. That's the way I do it.

I have 200 amp service to both places.

 

[TowPro]

Like someone else said, your box is probably full, but your not really drawing 200 amps.



I live just across the street from PPL (but I have PECO) and I have underground service, its direct buryed wire with PVC on each end, and where it passes under the driveway.



I have a 200 amp panel in the basement thats pretty full, but it also feeds a 100 amp sub panel upstairs (double wide mobile home on a full basement). And am installing a 50 amp sub panel in the garage off this 200 amp panel in the basement. With all this I am still no where near 200 amps. I also have a 100 amp panel for Off Peak which spins the meter almost as fast as the full service meter (but cost less then 1/2 for everything hooked to it.



When you run a 2nd panel to your barn, just remember to run 4 wires, and remove the bonding screw in the new panel. the bonding screw will be a green screw that connects the common and the ground. Look for a box that don't need a main breaker, as that will be in your main box. Square D home line is pretty

good stuff for cheep.



Of course I don't have that paper that says "he knows what he's talking about" so procede at your own risk!

 

[QRTRHRS]

I meant that the panel is filled although just like everyone else these days, we have a lot of plugs to feed. I would have to go look to see how many breakers it holds. I have two 20 amp circuits feeding my two other barns already. I can disco those for my house's future needs if any by going with another service.



PPL wants all the underground feed in conduit now, not just the exposed ends. As I said, although their broshure says inspection required, they don't need to. That part makes a big difference. I can do the underground PVC myself.



See, I have been writing a lot of checks on a tight budget so with the end in sight, I need to slow down. Cordinating trades = money. Who knows, when I get old (older) and gray (grayer), I may want to lease the whole thing out so a dedicated service would be a necessity.



TowPro, thanks, that's always sound advice to wire the subs so ground and comon connect only at the main.

 

[drees1]

I have done this a couple of times. You might consider feeding the barn from the pole and back feeding to the house. Reason being if you feed the house, you will need a new main panel at the house (handling the total amps) and the original house panel will be a new sub panel, and then you need another panel in the barn. If you feed direct to a new panel in the barn, you can take a feed off of it to the existing house, and save 1 panel. Also, I have had up to 400 amp service on a conventional meter. They literally brought in (2) 200 lines, (6 wires, 2 each phase, and 2 neutral) tied them at the meter and then split them to (2) 200 amp panels, which was cheaper than a single 300 amp panel. You might look at that, as the 200 amp residential panels are real cheap, and it cost me less to go 400 total from (2) 200's than a single 300. So what they did was 400 from the pole to one meter, split it to (2) 200's side by side in the barn, then one 200 was dedicated to the barn and the other back fed the house, and the house panel was not changed out, only re-configured to be a sub panel by isolating the neutral from ground. Very economical that way, I only bought (2) 200 panels for the whole job.

 

[illflem]

Glad to here they no longer allow direct burial cable where you live. They still do in Montana and people have trouble with it quite often, one nick is all it takes. When I lived in Washington the power company offered to replace their direct burial for free for a year, after that it's was your problem. I declined, guess what had to happen to my 20 foot concrete patio that the cable ran under 10 years later?

 

[QRTRHRS]

They have had a long learning curve along the way when it comes to underground. PVC pipe and stone dust are pretty cheap insurance.



drees1, I have my farm set up as an LLC so it really does make sense to isolate the two systems but thanks for the suggestion. One drawback is that the new wiring will have to be to code and inspected. That's all well and good except people don't always understand what is needed and what is not and you end up putting more in then you need.