Rant: plastic is totally inappropriate for pressurized plumbing systems

[rbattelle]

Please excuse the following rant. I just need to vent a little.



2 years ago most of my house was destroyed when a plastic (polybutylene) supply line nut under a 2nd floor sink suddenly cracked. The resultant 15-hour deluge of water quite literally destroyed the 1st floor and the basement.



I have a rather expensive water softener. The valve assembly is entirely cast plastic. Last night I discovered that suddenly one of the cast-in ports on the side of that softener developed a hairline fracture (most of which is too small to see with the naked eye) and was leaking water. I've been trying to seal the crack since last night (which is the last way I want to spend my holiday weekend).



Because of these experiences, it is my belief that plastic, of any kind (PVC, CPVC, PEX, ABS, Polyethylene, etc. ) has absolutely no place in any application where pressure is present.



If you have any plastic plumbing parts anywhere on the pressure side of your home plumbing, get rid of them.



Rant over. Thanks for letting me vent a little.



Ryan

 

[klenger]

My whole house is plumbed with Pex. Good news is the house is built on a slab and 100% ceramic tile (no carpet), so water damage would be minimal, if it ever came to that. At least in our house, all the pressureized water lines are above slab level, and can be serviced. Many of the new homes around here have the water lines below slab level.

 

[d90boy]

I understand your frustration and will agree totally with you on the CPVC junk. I've been pretty happy with PEX however using Zurn and Qest. The joints are pretty foolproof and nice if you have water in a line where you couldn't sweat it. They take to freezing a lot better and it's cheaper and faster than copper. All that said if cost is not a factor, I do copper for my own stuff.

 

[rubberneck]

We finished up our custom home last year. The plumber originally wanted to plum in the PEX. I know it is the newest coolest thing going, but I insisted on good old copper. I also was not happy with his choice of valves and fixtures. He credited the money allowed in the bid for those items and I purchased all of the supplies for the top out. I purchased all brass valves for the sinks and toilets and fixtures that were made of brass and stainless instead of plastic. It cost a ton more, but i agree with you i hate plastic. They plumbed our water conditioner using 2 pvc unions, and it has bugged me, but so far no leaks. They told me they were used for electrolysis reasons. At least those 2 fittings are in the garage, so any water damage would be minimal to none.

 

[Bill Stockard]

We finished up our custom home last year. The plumber originally wanted to plum in the PEX. I know it is the newest coolest thing going, but I insisted on good old copper. I also was not happy with his choice of valves and fixtures. He credited the money allowed in the bid for those items and I purchased all of the supplies for the top out. I purchased all brass valves for the sinks and toilets and fixtures that were made of brass and stainless instead of plastic. It cost a ton more, but i agree with you i hate plastic.

I agree. We have just completed building our new custom home on a cost plus basis with our general contractor. We had the option of PEX or copper. I told the plumber ALL COPPER and gladly paid extra for it! I have all copper in my shop bathroom and laundry room also.



Copper is a proven product, but who knows that PEX won't turn out to be the same fiasco as Quest in a few years?



Bill

 

[Skydiver]

RBattelle I'm sorry to hear about your H20 damage. What does your pressure normally run after midnight when demand is lower?

I also prefer good old copper.

Being employed at a water treatment plant (mostly maintenance) for 27 years the only problem I have with pvc is the plant operators breaking it. I've had very few breaks running between 103 to 123 psi. Most of our pvc is schedule 80. The good news is almost everything 2" or less is being changed out with stainless steel. I almost cried with joy when we got the stainless plumbing.

One thing I have learned in the last 10 years is the shallow bored wells(<55 feet)in this area have a very low PH and will dissolve copper in about 10 years of use. PH runs between 5. 5- 6. 0.

A friend of mine wanted to know what the green ring in the bath tub was caused from after they filled the tub before the power outage due to hurricane Opal. "Oh thats just the copper from your plumbing. " Had another real good friend replace all his copper with pvc after it failed due to corrosive well H20. The leaks looked like someone used a 1/64 drill bit on it.

I have almost no experience with Polybutylene and I think our 89 Newmar 5'vr is laced with polybrute.

 

[rubberneck]

Skydiver, you bring up a good point about the copper. My dad has been having intermittent problems with the "green ring" in his showers and toilets. Is there something to remedy this?? Are there water conditioners that can help stop or slow this process.

 

[rbattelle]

What does your pressure normally run after midnight when demand is lower?

Good question - I don't know. I don't have a pressure gauge anywhere in the lines.



I'm just so sick of plastic stuff breaking! I'd like to ditch the water softener and replace it with something that's all metal (with the possible exception of the resin tank), but near as I can tell there's no such thing as an all-metal valve body for them.



Since yesterday I've been working on a design for a water softener myself. It would be manual regeneration (I'd be turning valves like a steam locomotive engineeer), but also all metal. It might be cool to pretend I'm a train engineer every time it needs regeneration!



They're really not very complex devices.



Thanks for not giving me a hard time about my rant. I don't mean to condemn everyone who has plastic plumbing... I'm just angry and frustrated.



Ryan

 

[Skydiver]

Do a search on "Baylis curve"

http://water.me.vccs.edu/wpdef.htm .

Will need a 0. 1 maximum GPM metering pump to inject soda ash into the line and a PH tester to keep the water at the baylis curve. He will need to make up a 3% or less solution in a 5 gallon bucket and feed it only while the well motor in running. This will use about 1/4 to 3/4 teaspoon of soda ash for a days water use. As a rule using more chemical is not better. Kind of like adjusting a carb,only use so much gas to the amount of incoming air. If your Dad is on a public water supply they should be adding corrosion control chemicals . The water plant I'm at now uses Aqua mag.

Is your Dad on a well ? Answer Yes for more details. Answer No and he will still need to take action to remedy the corrosion problem. Corrosive water is safe to drink as long as the PH is Between 5-9.

I use a 0-100 psi gauge on a female hose bib adapter . If possible install a pressure regulator right before the water goes into the house or under if you have crawl space . That way you can still have a garden hose running at full line pressure before the pressure reducer . Always glad to discuss water issues. Tim

 

[rubberneck]

Yes he is on a well, I will take my water test kit over and measure his pH to give a little more data. thanks for the info so far.

 

[daveshoe]

Poly problems mostly valve problems

Rbatelle,I bet the supply valve nut you describe was a big old honkin nut of about an inch at the flats of the hex head. The problem with this whole system is that the valves were of a plastic that was not compatible with chlorine in city water systems. The soft piping was fine,but the valves cracked. replacement metal valves were made for a time,but are no longer available. The lawsuits and class action stuff took care of that. You can eliminate the valve problem,but you need a poly x copper sweat fitting[also no longer available] I have a few left,and I am about out of them.

The crimp rings from the old poly stuff work on pex,but the pex fittings are not the correct diameter to fit inside the old poly pipe. It is basically obsolete.

Another leak problem that I would like to alert you guys to is ''push out'' of plastic supply lines from stop valves under a sink or toilet. This occurs from using a compression fitting at the stop valve/plastic line junction. Some cities with high water pressure outlaw their use,but the local home centers sell them anyway. Replace these things with a high quality braided line as soon as possible. The difference between a drip and a torrent if there is a leak in the braided line vs a separation. of the plastic line.