Archived Rear end is shot,want advice

[-gtsm-]

My wifes truck needs rear axle repair, see this thread https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98198 I need to repair this asap and am looking for shop recommendations in new orleans area . I am going to start making some calls now .

 

[Extreme1]

If it was run low on oil the gears are very likely shot as well as the bearings. Look for a used rear axle assembly with the same gear ratio. All 2nd geheration Dana 80's (non-dually) should be interchangeable. I have a 2000 carrier in my '94.



The Factory Service Manual (FSM) is much more usefull than a Haynes manual, they're not what they used to be. The FSM has all the details for the axle rebuild.

 

[-gtsm-]

Yeah ,just got a call from the repair shop ... axle is totally shot only thing salvageable is the housing

 

[Mopar Man1]

I know this sounds sorty weird. But wouldnt a GM 14FF hold up just as good. I ve seen them withstand the abuse of 44" Boggers and a bigblock. Just my 2 cents.

 

[pholt]

Oh please no~!!!

Originally posted by Mopar Man1

I know this sounds sorty weird. But wouldnt a GM 14FF hold up just as good. I ve seen them withstand the abuse of 44" Boggers and a bigblock. Just my 2 cents.

If you are referring to a Corporate 14 bolt, No! I own several rock crawlers and a Corporate 14 can not hold a candle to a 35 spline high pinion Dana 60 let a one a Dana 70 or 80. The C14 is ok, if that is all you got.



I would put a Ford 9" with Dana 44 outers before I used a 14...



the origional post, I would replace the stock rearend, they are all the same. Fortunaly the no steer axles are still somewhat reasonable.



Just my . 02. .



Not worth much.

 

[MidwestMotorman]

GM 14 bolt

Pholt... you must have ended up with the lighter 14 bolt rears, or the rockcrawling has oil starved the center housing. I have never seen a 14 bolt failure other than factory limited slip failures and one busted hub. A heavy duty 14 bolt is regarded as heavy as a dana 70. I think the ring gear and pinion are bigger too.



It is the killer torque of the cummins at low rpms, a loaded rig, with no tire slip that kills Dana 60s/Dana 70s and anything else back there. That ford 9" may be great for race cars and crawlers, but not in a tow rig with weight hitched on.



I wouldn't hesitate to set up a heavy duty 14 bolt for your rig -gtsm-. It would be my first choice if a Dana 70 or 80 could not be found. An 80 with an aftermarket rear cover and regular changed synthetic oil would go a long, long time.

 

[pholt]

Re: GM 14 bolt

Originally posted by MidwestMotorman

Pholt... you must have ended up with the lighter 14 bolt rears, or the rockcrawling has oil starved the center housing. I have never seen a 14 bolt failure other than factory limited slip failures and one busted hub. A heavy duty 14 bolt is regarded as heavy as a dana 70. I think the ring gear and pinion are bigger too.



Ha, we broke a Rockwell the other day, the axle weighes over 800lbs, so breaking 14's are easy.



\That ford 9" may be great for race cars and crawlers, but not in a tow rig with weight hitched on.



The weak point on a 14 bolt is not the ring and pinion, but the axle shafts they neck down, and the housing, we have several 1 ton trucks that the housings have bent, and sent the axle shafts down a short road. I have made many 14's fail. the dana is much stronger, have you ever cut a dana and a corporate axle shaft housing? The dana is about 3/8 this, the Corporate is about 1/4, big difference. The ford 9", ring and pinion is about 30% stronger than a 14, because of it's design, but the housing will not hold up. i agree with you go with the Dana. The price alone will show the difference in quality.



Paul

 

[MidwestMotorman]

rear ends...

Pholt... How are you guys bending those 14 bolt rears? What kind of use/abuse are they subjected to? In my 20 years of ag work with trucks loaded with 20 to 40k of stuff, I have never seen one bend or break an axle. In my 9 years as a military mechanic, I have never seen one fail. I have seen plenty of Dana 60 fronts bite the dust in the military (ring and pinion failures). The only thing that took out the 14 bolts was leaky pinion seals and gov-lock breakage. I have used and abused the 14 bolts many times and wondered why they hang together.

The only useage that I have not seen these rears subjected to is diesel powered rigs with a lockup converter or a manual trans. I don't know how these would hold up under low speed direct drive loads, i. e. massive torque applied with no slippage. I've seen them take bashing from big blocks and monster meats, but not in a high torque low speed situations.



It would be great if the Dana 70 rears had the same reliability as the old Ford 9". The ring and pinion design has proven itself. Plus you can't beat the ease of changing gears or working on it. I don't know how it would take the high torque/low rpm takeoff though. The Ford 9" is known for pinion and carrier related cracks after high miles, and they should be checked for them. One good takeoff and it would be gear change time.



I think a lot of these Dana failures are inevitable. Gasser rigs change hands after 80-100k or go to the scrapyard. Lots of gasser owners go through the rear ends when the trans or major brake work is done just because they know "it's time". We keep our trucks on the road for much longer, as most of us make our living behind the wheel or in whats on the trailer. We don't like and can't afford to have them off the road for any length of time. Too bad the engine is designed for 400k and the rest of the chassis and body for 150k...

 

[pholt]

We have had about 4 Chevrolet 1 tons bend the axle tubes at the carriers. The abuse is general farm use, the axle tubes are weak in my book. No bending bac, just sagging some and that leads to seals leaking and premature axle wear. Go pick out just about any 80's model chevrolet one ton and look at the oil seapage around the center, most are bent slightly.



What dana 60 did you see fail??? Was it the mopar style 60, or the high pinion 60?, Many 60's have small outer axles, but the 35 spline variety are almost unbreakable.



in the rock crawling world the dana 60 is king. A well built dana 60 will cost about $6000. 00 per axle, a Dana 70 or 80 are to heavy, a well built 60 is just about impossible to break. Of course if you want super strenght go with a Rockwell Duece axle, from the beloved millitary trucks. Of course you just damn near added a ton to the weight!!



Yea too bad the motor is 5 times better than the truck. I hope my truck will last longer than 150, I have 110 and hope about 250 before I need major drivetrain work.

 

[DougKrebs]

Originally posted by pholt





in the rock crawling world the dana 60 is king. A well built dana 60 will cost about $6000. 00 per axle, a Dana 70 or 80 are to heavy, a well built 60 is just about impossible to break. Of course if you want super strenght go with a Rockwell Duece axle, from the beloved millitary trucks. Of course you just damn near added a ton to the weight!!

What rock crawling world are you in?? Maybe you are talking about a front dana 60? That would make sense... but saying a rear 60 is stronger than a 14 bolt? Also, people love the 14 bolt for the 3rd pinion support and cheapness of a detroit locker.



Also, the tubing thickness is 3. 25" x . 5", i'm not sure how you are bending this.



Anything you wanted to know about a 14 bolt



14 bolt bible

 

[pholt]

Well ok, not going to argue with you, but I would never put a 14 bolt over a 60 in my truck. Wait I have done it, I have smoked 4 14 bolts and I still am running the same 60, take a look how a 14 necks down on the axles, but you sound like a expert. Actually, most of the guys I run with, including avalanche enginering, WMS, Currie, John Loyd all run Dana 60's, but I guess when money is no object, they choose to run the inferior axle. A corporate 14 is much cheaper and not a bad choice, but not number one by any means. A Dana 60 can be made to be much stroger AT THIS TIME than a 14, let alone having much better ground clearance.



As soon as my axles are done, they will be Ford 9" centers, with Dana 44 outers, all 4 wheel steering axles. This puts the superior 9" ring gear with the bigger no neck long side 44 axles, custom cut cryoed by Moser. This will leed to a very strong yet light weight setup. If weight was not a issue I would save tons of money and get rockwells.



Also, the tubing thickness is 3. 25" x . 5", i'm not sure how you are bending this



It is bending at the 3rd member, the weakest spot on the axles. You act like this is a new thing. My father has been in the motor home gig for a long time and this is common.





but anyway...

 

[DougKrebs]

Ok, don't want to get into a huge argument, just trying to sort out the facts as I was going to run a 14 bolt in a future rig.



I was always under the impression that the center section of a 14 bolt was much larger than a 60. I've only heard of one 14 bolt that was bent and the guy bought it like that so he didn't know what happened to it. If it was such a problem why wouldn't you hear about it on Pirate? Or does this just happen with extreme amounts of weight?



Yes I am aware that a 14 bolt necks down, but most people rarely break the shaft.



You are going to use 44 shafts on rear steer? What u-joint are you going to use? How big of a tire?

 

[Parks]

Let's try to stick to the original issue.



Thank you

 

[pholt]

Yes I am aware that a 14 bolt necks down, but most people rarely break the shaft.



I have never broke anything but the axle shaft.



You are going to use 44 shafts on rear steer? What u-joint are you going to use? How big of a tire?



Both axles are identical, 9" housings 44 outers, 44 long sides cut down and cryod. I am using the larger Spicer 44 joints. I am running 38's but the truck only weighs 2200, so it will be damn near bullitt proof. I am building the axles, they are pretty trick so far. The 44 outer housing will slide in the 9" tube with a little mill work, best of both worlds, but lots of work.



Your right parks, just guys talking to much. I would find the first 14 bolt or 70 0r 80 avaliable, they will all hold up for our use.

 

[pholt]

Doug Said: I was always under the impression that the center section of a 14 bolt was much larger than a 60.



Oh sorry, yes it is MUCH bigger, no doubt. But in the rock crawling word, the ring gear is not usually the first one to go. The outer shafts will go first, or the CV joints, then the short side shaft and last the ring gear. but yes for pulling like we do I agree a 14 is better than a 60, but I would take a 70 and a 80 over a 14.

 

[pholt]

And sorry Doug, this issue has been in many arguements and it came back, you right on our trucks. My other passion is offroad trucks and that is a different duck all together.



I think gtsm will have more luck finding a 14 bolt, at a better price than the 70 or 80, just my . 02.

 

[fox]

I'd like to jump in here and ask a question.

Do any of you know where I could find a 14 bolt dually axle for a chevy 1 ton. ? This is a 1989 step van and the rear axle has been changed out to the dually truck set up.

My employees have hit a curb or something and bent the housing, 2 wheels, broke the u-bolt plate and other carnage. No one is owing up to it but for now I need to replace this axle.

Actually, the truck has a 10 bolt cover with 4" tubes and is 72 or 74 " at the wheel mating surface.



I'm in the midwest-Illinois.