Rear End Replaced

[draymorris]

Just wanted to let everyone know that I had to have my rear ende replaced at 67k. I have posted on the topic a number of times and felt that I should post the latest.



I took it in 8AM on a Monday - Tues AM they called to tell me they ordered a new rear end - Thurs afternoon it came in damaged beyond use - Tues PM of the next week the next arrived - Picked truck up on Wed PM.



The thing that irritates me is that they said they could not find anything wrong with the old one during this ordeal. While I was there to pick it up, the old housing was sitting in the garage. I confirmed that it was mine and inspected it myself. The gears were no where to be found, so all I could do was look in the housing - it was full of metal flakes. They (the service guys) all said that the size of the flakes was normal, the quantity of flakes was the reason for the replacement.



BTW 6th gear is whining also. They were supposed to check it out, but they wanted to see how it sounded after the rear replacement. After them having my truck for a week and a half, I decided not to bring it up at the time. However, one of the techs is a friend and he confirmed that 6th has a noise when we test drove it. It seem that I have heard plenty about 6th from people who pull.



Conclusions:

IMO the metal that AA uses in these gears is just soft. When I pushed a little harder the service manager said that the gears actually did not show wear. I concurr, every time I changed the fluid I could not see wear, but there was a bunch of metal in tbe bottom -it's soft metal.



When you ask a service advisor "have you seen this problem on many other vehicles?" His answer will always be "no. " I am sure his job is on the line, but the service techs will sometimes tell the truth - the tech that I know there came straight out and told me they are having hell with these rear ends- especially on trucks that pull.



I love Dodge, primarily becuase the Cummins. But an engine mounted in a POS is no good to anyone. If DC does not resolve the AA weekness(including the Anti spin problems), I will not buy another. BTW this is my 4th CTD. I know some poeple will say that I am pulling too much with mine, but the way I see it - if I have to move up to a Freightliner to pull my GN, I won't be able to afford a Dodge CTD, nor will I need one. So they lose my business anyway.



Oo.

 

[Bertram65]

How much weight are you towing? and what kind of problems have you had with the anti-spin?

 

[bulabula]

Where are all the soft metal flakes that lined the housing coming from?



How often did you change out the fluid? At 67k I figure 4 times or so? What gear lube did you use?



Can't say I've had any issue with AS.

 

[draymorris]

I hual hay on the weekends and will tow around 28 to 30K. I know that is way more than DC rates, but I know that dana rear ends did not have these problems under the same conditions. Many people do what I do and a lot more. In the past, rear ends would go a lot farthur than 100k, with no fluid change, and never give problem. Now DC wants you to change every 15K, even under normal conditions. I had the dealer change the fluid at 18K - metal flakes were present, but they said normal for first change, then I changed it at 40K (I know I am going past 15K) - it had a huge amount of metal in it. At that oil change I changed to Amsoil. I pulled for 800 miles then checked the magnetic plug - it was fully covered (could not hold any more metal). After seeing how fast it was making metal, I decided not to waste the money on oil, becuase it was grinding on sharp corners, like the AS was trying to grab and I knew it was going to the shop. I think the AS was locking up on my truck. They finally got it in at 67K.



Again, this was not a problem in the past with Dana - and you did not have to run synthetic oil in them. I know it is nice to have a replacable gasket, but it make you wonder why it is designed to change the oil so often.



After the rear was replaced, it no longer grinds on corner, I also no longer have a slight vibration on take off- I was blaming it on the clutch wear, but it must have been in the rear. I also had a large amount of slack that disappeared with the new rear end. It is for these reasons that I beleive that AA is making the gears out of softer(or faster wearing) metal. Why did DC change any way - if we knew the truth it would probably be for the money.



To get on the soapbox -

I know I am doing more with my truck than I am suppose to, but many trucks made it the recent past would have handled this work. I don't run a chip and do not plan to because the extra HP and TQ would probably thrash the trans and rear quicky. I drive very non - agressively, especially loaded. If you are going to make a machine that does so much at the power source, why would you not make the rest of the machine hold up to it. It seems that DC haws made a drivetrain change on a drivetrain that did not need to me changed. And then to really pi$$ you off, go buy tires for the truck - only one choice and you pay - and Goodyear had a bead-bulging problem on them - the was wrong with 16 inch, or why could they not have gone to 16. 5 inch - Oh yeah, the brakes are too big - DESIGN OVER-SIGHT OR WHAT! I like the way it stops, but I don't remember a problem stopping with the old design! Yes it is true Ford has their problems and chevy has theirs' - the way I see it, first one to work out the bugs will gain a lot of customers from those of us who like diesels. My ideal truck would be a Ford front and rear end, chevy trans and cummins power with a full four door cab. They (the BIG 3) are causing customer loyalty to change. I love the engine and the looks of Dodge, but don't fix it if it ain't broke.

 

[DPelletier]

I too wish DC woulda stuck with the D80, but to be fair, AAM makes the rear ends not DC. I imagine DC didn't expect the number of rear-end problems they have had, expecially since the GM trucks are running substantially the same axle. The AAM doesn't make the rest of the truck junk. I am surprised at the number of rear-end replacements that DC has authorized. I would have expected that if there was a specific problem (i. e. soft gearsets), that they would have demanded proof from AAM that they have revised the part(s) and changed the customers parts out that were haveing problems.



Dave



ps. I think the 2nd gen trucks had two advantages; Dana axles and HX35 turbos. Everything else, I like better on my 3rd gen.

 

[Bertram65]

Just curious, why didn't you get the 4. 10s in your truck? What gears did you have in your previous Dodge trucks?

I do not think the larger brakes are a design oversight in regards to wheel size, they just made larger wheels a requirement. Dodge has historically had the worst brakes for a long time, these are a huge improvment and perhaps better than either Ford or GMs. Based on engineering the anti spin in the AAM axles is far superior to the Dana using clutches.

 

[draymorris]

I have heard that both sides on the rear axle issue - I think that the rear end is not the same as the chevy. There have been some locker discussion thread on here that say that you cannot use the the same parts as Chevy. That even brings another thought to mind - why would DC use a completely new unit if AA already make a rear end that is made to be used in pick-ups. AA might be mfg these axles in a different assembly line. They might be using a different metal, heat treat process, etc. There are many possibilities - but all are speculations. I have not heard of Chevy ever having a rear end that produced metal flakes like mine did. I am sure DC did not see this coming - but my point is - why did they change? I think it was for the almighty $ and brake system. Yes the brake system is great, but it is the reason we have only one choice for tires - so that makes Goodyear a "monopoly" on these tires. I payed $208 each for my tires(mounted and balanced) - 16 or 16. 5 would not have been this much. And worse yet, I had to buy a brand that I have never liked and that have a "bead bulging" problems on size my truck requires - they have not had a recall, but they will give you some credit if your bead start to separate.



I have 373's - I would have got 4:10, but I was talked into this truck based on others who pulled. Since this is also my daily driver, I felt it was a good choice. If I continue to pull, I will have 4:10's in my next truck.

 

[DPelletier]

Just to play the devil's advocate, the "monopoly" on tires is already over and will only get to be less and less of an issue. There is already several manufacturer's that make tires for our trucks and more will come. I heard that Ford was going to 17" next year. If that's true, we should have even more choices soon.

I'm hoping that by the time my tires need replacing (at least another 12mo) that there will be lots of choices out there.



Dave

 

[draymorris]

I heard Cooper was making this size - Did they get them on the market? Who else is making them?

 

[DGFoster]

I have read that the rearend in the Dodge is a step up from the Chevy,because Chevys are narrowed out and the Dodge isnt.

I too have some reservations with the AAM,not that I have had any trouble but I know what I put my Dana 80 through and it was flawless. Time will tell if the AAM will hold up,but since yours is almost out of warranty I would be a bit sceptical also.

As far as brakes go,Dodge has always had lousy brakes,my new one though is awsome,Dodge finally got it right were brakes are concerned.

 

[jimnance]

I also wonder why we need to change the rear diff lube at 15K miles. The super duper synthetic oil they are using ought to last much longer than that. In our big rigs we go 100K between diff service when using synthetic and have no lubrication issues at all.



As for as AA is concerned, from what I've seen their quality is not up to Dana standards. Mine has had a slight howl, but nothing I'm concerned about at this point. Could AA have soft gears? Perhaps. Keep in mind that this truck was consistantly hauling way more than most of us ever will.



As far as the brakes are concerned I must repectfully disagree. Dodge brakes have always been a little weak. I should know, as I've had four CTD's before the '03. They weren't bad, but they could use improvement. To Dodge's credit they made a big improvement with their brakes.



As far as tires are concerned there are more competitors out there, and more selection coming. Not an issue for me as I've converted to 19. 5" rubber to better handle the weight I'm hauling.



I think we have to wait and see on the AA axles. So far they've had some teething pains, but I've seen worse. I had a Ferd Exploder that went through three transmissions in forty thousand miles!

 

[robobx]

Originally posted by draymorris









After the rear was replaced, it no longer grinds on corner, I also no longer have a slight vibration on take off- I was blaming it on the clutch wear, but it must have been in the rear. I also had a large amount of slack that disappeared with the new rear end.

OK, I too have a vibe on take off and alot of slack that I thought was clutch. So the slack is from the rear? i have 3. 73 and a LS too. The slack has to be what has eaten every U-joint in the DS. I'm at 63,150, I guess I better get it in to be checked out. I hope they don't blow it off if there's not a bunch of metal floating around





This is my first CTD, but damnit I want DANA AXLES!!! That will be the next trend with 3rd gens, swapping in Dana axles from 2nd gens.



I hope all the failures come soon before the Jeep lineup is switched over to these POS axles, but I'm sure it's too late:{

 

[Bouncy]

I just read about the AAM axles for the first time.



I have the vibration at take off too.



Guess the next trip to the shop will have that on record.



Still have to get that windows to roll up and down smoothly.

 

[EB]

Glad to hear replacing your rear end solved your problem. As I have told you before, I have a little whine and have had a vibration problem when starting off also. My vibration problem turned out to be a bad u-joint, once that was replaced the problem was solved, if I start off accelerating hard in a turn with a load I will get a slight vibration, IMO that is the limited slip trying to lock up and the tires are hopping a bit. I haven't had the metal flaking problem you have had, just a gray paste on the magnet, no metal at all.

I agree with you on the tire issue. Cooper does make that size now but it is an aggressive tread pattern that I personally don't want. There are a lot of people making 17" tires, but not in the 235/80R/17, that's the problem.

The most wt. our company will allow us to carry on the G/N trailers is 16,000 lbs. , that brings the gross wt. to 23,000 lbs. That is fine with me, the truck will pull it, but getting it stopped with electric brakes is another story. They help, but they aren't like air or hyd. brakes. I know when I get another trailer it will have at least electric over hyd. brakes.

The only time I hear the whine is when I'm running empty with just the truck, when the trailer is behind me, no noise, empty trailer or loaded. I'm over 126,000 miles now so I don't have any complaints.

 

[Big_Daddy_T]

Drap morris. Im curious. Did you employ a breakin procedure? The metal can become soft if the temps get too high on break in. I would use extra caution on your new rear end to ensure temps are managable.

 

[Mercam]

what problems have been seen with the Anti-spin? just wondering since i have the AS and when i was puting my lift on the other day i spun the one of the rear tires and it acted like an open diff tire spun opposite direction. Has me wondering if i even have the AS in the Diff. I do leave two lines if i roast the tires though

 

[24Vpirate]

AAM axles are poor at best i own a differential shop and GM has been useing AAM for many years now and those axles fail at a incrediably high rate they are lucky to 70k if that before they need a complete overhaul and the GM stuff will bolt right into the dodges that is why i bought a 02 cause when i heard chrysler gave the contract to AAM i about cried they had a good thing going with DANA but as always its a LOW BIDDER thing and to be the low bidder you have to cut corners somewhere imo AAM was and will turn out to be a big mistake to the reputation of dodge after all if aint broke dont fix it as to the ANTI SPIN diff from AAM they do not work well at all and you cant adjust them like the danas you are stuck with what you get but on the other hand i no my shop will busy for years to come as long as AAM has the contracts to make diffs thats how i pay my house payment and truck payment "thank you AAM" without them i would be like the maytag repairman bored to broke

 

[Bertram65]

Interesting, you would think if the GM rears were failing at a high rate you would hear more about it on the GM forums, I read them and have heard of very few. Also there are quite a few differences in the rear ends, for instance the Dodge uses a gear on the ring gear for sensing speed which the GM does not, and the Dodge anti spin and the GM G80 are not the same and not interchangeable.

 

[24Vpirate]

Originally posted by Bertram65

the Dodge anti spin and the GM G80 are not the same and not interchangeable.

yes they are i have done it to several trucks already they are exactly the same dimensionaly they say it cant be done but they also said the world was flatt and that wasnt true either as far as the speed sensor ring a few minutes in a lathe and that problem was solved too trust me its how i pay all my bills its my job to do what others say cant be done you are only limeted by your wallet and imagination.

 

[Blownaway]

dealer just replaced all bearings...

I have had a ghostly howl at 20mph when cold from day one I think,... ... ... well at 19,000 the dealer just installed all new bearings and set up the rear in my truck. I finally just took it in because it started slinging oil from the pinion seal. Still has a very slight noise when I first take off in the A. M but it sound and feels good all of the rest of the time. I am happy for now.