Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Return to ATF +3, or stay with Amsoil?

[Tulsa618]

I’ve had Amsoil ATF in the transmission since I installed the BD valve body, Pressure Lock and Pro-Torque TC in August of 2000 at just under 12K. I drop the pan from time to time and replace the filter each time, and I reinstall the Amsoil ATF. (I'm pretty careful about making sure it's clean. ) I’m at almost 63K now and I’m considering just going back to ATF +3. As easy as it is to change fluid (and filter), I was thinking I might as well go back and see if that would have any “improving” effect on the shudder I sometimes feel at 65ish when the transmission hasn’t completely warmed up. (I’ve experienced this for quite some time. ) Other than the TC lock-up engaging too soon in OD, I've experienced no other transmission problems.



If I go back to ATF +3, must I remove ALL the Amsoil when doing so? Or can I just remove the 11 quarts or so that don’t come out of the lines and TC, and do a couple changes at, say, 10K intervals until it all works itself out? Or should I just keep the Amsoil, or maybe just replace it? ‘Appreciate your opinions.

 

[BillGotthelf]

The Amsoil universal atf will mix and is compatible with other atf's. Why switch back to dino fluid? The amsoil will handle higher temps without breaking down.

 

[78repowerwagon]

I have 225,000 on my transmission running only atf+3. I run it hard, tow heavy and tow in od.

 

[RowJ]

I don't think changing back to ATF+3 will help with your shudder. But worth a try - stranger things have happened. Sounds like possibly an internal pressure problem.



There is no problem mixing synthetic & non synthetic fluids -in a transmission or an engine.



You don't say how often you change fluid in your transmission or how many miles on it. With an expensive customized transmission - I would run non synthetics ATF no more than 20,000 miles. Many go a lot farther but I wouldn't.



I agree with Bill G. ; Synthetics are a lot kinder to your transmission. They handle cold starts & hot summer temps much better than non synthetics,, especially when towing with an automatic. A lot of concern is mentioned here about coking in turbos but few discuss coking ATF fluid when it gets too hot. It can happen with high HP autos, or when towing. Much less likely with a synthetic ATF.



Amsoil is one of the better ones out there. IMHO It's cheap insurance against transmission problems down the road (at say 100,000 miles). That being said, changing a non synthetic @ 15,000 - 20,000 miles and keeping Temps under 250 degrees is good preventative maintenence and can work well also.

 

[2ndgen2500]

i am switching back to amsoil myself as well, i have a question , since the topic is trannys, when i first start up my truck and put it in gear wheither it be reverse or forward, the engine shudders (i dont know how to describe this) but it like reves up and down 3 times and acts like it is trying to fight something i have no idea why it doesnt do this after the first time. i have a DTT transmission

 

[RowJ]

2nd Gen

Did you know you have no check valve (to hold fluid in)in your DTT transmission?



No check valve allows better flow but requires 30-60 sec when first starting it (after an hour or more of shut down) to allow fluid to fill all transmission components



If you don't give it at least 30 sec on initial start up - it will do what you describe... . and cause premature wear and poor performance in the future.

 

[kstehnacs]

trans fluid

Did you consider atf+4. It is said to help with shudder problems and not lose it's ability to deal with heat after 30k like the atf+3 does. Just a thought.

 

[Tulsa618]

Thanks for all the replies! The Amsoil in there now has about 50K on it, and I’ve change the filter every 20K. Since I don’t race, tow or carry heavy (nor expect to), the transmission temp has never seen 200 – and rarely gets above 150. I never hit it hard when cold, and I always give it a few minutes (in Neutral, of course) for fluids to begin circulating before driving off. I still experience that slight shudder once I get up to about 60-65 anyway.



Changing the fluid and filter at 20K with ATF +3 would be no problem. ATF +4? Hmmm…. I might look into that.

 

[RowJ]

ATF +4 ???

ATF+4 fluid is recommended for stock trannies only.



Both DTT & ATS (Triple Lock) recommend a Dexron III equivalent.



I would ck w/ BD but suspect they will say same as other after market transmission builders.

 

[GFrance]

Rowj

This is from Bill k at dtt. A paper he gave with my new transmission.

After installing DTT components do not add or allow any transmission shops to add friction modifiers. Mopar ATF + 3 type 7176 ATF is the recommeded fluid. While some customers like to use Dexron 2 for the more aggressive shifts please note it is more prone to more shudder than ATF + 3. Dextron 3 fluid is not recommended. Clutch chatter can result from the use of improper fluid.

I too was useing Amsoil & Bill Said It's good oil, runs cooler but did not recomend extended change intervals. He recomended I changed after first 1,000 mi. & 12,000 mi there after. At the price of Amsoil I went back to atf + 3 I have a drain plug in my torque converter to get all the fluid out.

I do run Amsoil in the motor.

 

[rblomquist]

I'm getting shudder while towing with my ATS as well. Usually between 60-70 mph. It's filled with +3 7176.

 

[2ndgen2500]

Originally posted by RowJ

Did you know you have no check valve (to hold fluid in)in your DTT transmission?



No check valve allows better flow but requires 30-60 sec when first starting it (after an hour or more of shut down) to allow fluid to fill all transmission components



If you don't give it at least 30 sec on initial start up - it will do what you describe... . and cause premature wear and poor performance in the future.

thanks for the info, i will make sure i let it run longer before putting it in gear.

 

[RowJ]

GFrance

I checked my paperwork from my DTT instalation and could find no such recommendation.



I believe I was told to use Dexron III as Bill & his crew had found heavier wear & tear on examining their trannys that use either MOPAR product with its friction modifiers.



My DTT was installed in August, 2003. I don't know if I might have more current info than you - or did I misunderstand the "do's & don't" speech I got at that time?



I do believe the primary difference between Dexron III and ATF+3 is more friction modifiers in the latter. That coupled with the wear & tear info above makes me think Dexron III may be the way to go but you have me curious.



Anyone else out there have an answer?

 

[RowJ]

GFrance - Talked to DTT

Sp w/ Stephan, at DTT, about recommended ATF. He said two things that probably make GFrance & I both right!



1- The less friction modifier (Dexron III) the better in a DTT transmission in terms of longer life with less wear & tear. Depending on HP, Dexron III may shudder or slip a little; he felt this problem would not be a concern under 400 - 425 hp. Dexron III provides less slippage and therefore, firmer shifts and is perfectly acceptable.



2- ATF+3 will offer smoother shifting. This is achieved by more slippage due to more friction modifier. He did not say "don't use ATF+3. (In fact he uses it himself). He feels the additional wear & tear from AFT+3 in not significant, but they have seen a difference when going back into a used DTT transmission.



As we all know - Stephen said DTT does not want their trannys using ATF+4.



Sorry to make this a long thread - but this subject gets me thinking again about Amsoil ATF, an how it can meet ATF+3 AND ATF+4 specs? Did some research and think I found the answer!



Specs for ATF+3 do not specify max amount of friction modifier - only a minimum. ATF+4 requires more F. M. than ATF+3. So Amsoil meets and exceeds ATF+3 specs by meeting ATF+4 specs. In this case, however, exceeding specs is not a bonus but a compromise; and one that DTT trannys don't want.



The Amsoil additive package comes from Lubrizol Petroluem and is a "one fits all" blend (also meets all Dexron and all Mercon specs). This blend of additives makes life easy for the manufacturer, and is ok for most factory transmissions, but not what I want in a expensive, custom built, tight toleranced transmission.

Amsoil is a top quality company with the best quality synthetic ingredients, but in this case, I think,... not the best for us. I'm going to mix some Amsoil ATF I bought but never used, with synthetic Dexron III - maybe 30%/70%. Best of both worlds?



TULSA618 - Back to the original question on this thread - Amsoil ATF, has more Friction Modifiers than AFT+3, so switching to ATF+3 will probably do nothing to help your shudder. I would go back to my supplier for help.

 

[GFrance]

rowj

I took my last post right off the paper that was with my package of paper work that Bill gave me. I just had my transmission done dec. 29th. May be some different oils for different valve bodies, tolorance's so fourth. Glad to see you called Stefen to clear things up. Like I said I'm not going to go back to Amsoil in my transmission do to expence of just throwing it out with 12,000 mile changes.

 

[RowJ]

GFrance

Thanks for feed back. Fact that Stephan uses ATF+3 says a lot and has me thinking hard.

I have been draining my pan only @ 10,000 mi and replacing 10 qts (60%). Don't enjoy removing 727DD and after seeing how clean filter was after 20,000 mi, believe I can go at least 30,000 on those - maybe 40,000.

Just to try and learn a little more regarding Bill's recommendation - My DTT is an 89% Torque Converter - with lots of hauling (9,000 lb +/-) but no towing. Is your different?

 

[GFrance]

Rowj

I also have the 89% towing valve body I think my set up is similar to yours. I havn't done my first drain yet may be this weekend. With the mag pan Bill says she"ll take 17 qts with draining torque conv. Want to get the fuzzies out. I've only put 900 mi on since the new transmission, 500mi to get home & a short trip empty. I tow 12,000 lb 5vr this is not my daily driver. I bought it for my retirement rig to tow.

Got a ute bumper to instal this weekend also.