Running B100 -- 3rd Gens -- Polymerization (Flocking) -- Good News.

[67guzzler]

Finally -- I must have burned up the search engines and I have some specific information regarding using B100 in high pressure direct injected engines.



The story is long but I'll try to simmer it down to this. The information about people report "hearing" that there is a problem with running B100 in HPDI engines exists. But after looking at the problem more closely it appears that the fact that it was B100 wasn't the problem at all. It was a fuel quality issue.



Here is the (long) story from "johnbush" on the biodiesel forum:



"A little over a year ago, Boulder Biodiesel was distributing Blue Sun Biodiesel to a transit authority in Boulder who was testing Blue Suns' B100 in one of their buses (known as the "Hop"), which had a Cummins common-rail injection system. Apparently, after months of using the fuel, they were still clogging their fuel filters about once a week, and this was a rather new vehicle so fuel tank deposits seemed unlikely. They had the filters sent to a lab, and determined that a "sand-like" particulate was responsible for the clogging. The lab had stated that there had been a problem with the high pressure of the Cummins common rail injection system causing the fuel to "floculate" forming these particulates. This was occuring in the injection pump, then the particulates were passed through the return line back to the tank, and then the next time they traveled through the fuel system they were being clogged in the filter. I am not sure whether the lab had relayed this message as an official statement from Cummins or if they came up with it on their own. However, the bus was soon switched to run only on B20, which they did not recieve from Boulder Biodiesel, so I do not know what eventually became of it after that. "



NOW DON'T FREAK OUT.



There is credible evidence that the problems they had was due to a bad batch of biodiesel from Blue Sun!



Please read this from Mike Briggs on the Biodiese Forum:



"High pressure won't polymerize biodiesel. The polymerization issue arises if the fuel oxidizes into peroxides (i. e. hydroperoxide), which can then lead to polymerization. The navy has done extensive research on this. See one of their reports at http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/mar/20000701_mar-021.pdf

Note that in their tests, they found that the biodiesel they used was MORE stable against oxidation than their diesel fuel. The biggest issue comes down to three things - quality, quality, and quality. And usually, the quality issue comes down to the storage issue. Fuel being exposed to air/water is the biggest culprit in practically every case, due to degradation of the fuel (oxidation, and eventual peroxidation), or in longer-term failures from corrosion.



That navy study has the most thorough data I've seen on oxidation stability testing of B100, biodiesel blends, and straight diesel in a direct comparison. "



He goes on to say:



"On the issue of polymerization/oxidation - the iodine number is related to how readily an oil (or biodiesel) will polymerize - but again, it only does so under conditions the fuel shouldn't be in anyway (ie water contamination, etc. ). Biodiesel doesn't directly polymerize itself - it first has to be oxidized to form peroxides, which THEN polymerize. So, without the potential for oxidation, you won't get polymerization. Another potential issue - if there are substantial levels of glycerin remaining in the fuel (which ASTM quality biodiesel shouldn't have), you can get acrolein formation from the glycerin, with the acrolein itself polymerizing in combustion chambers. See http://www.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/biodiesel/publications/submissions/pubs/logical.pdf

for more on this (this is the comments from a VERY highly regarded chemist when Australia started forming its standardization for biodiesel). You can search for "polymerize" to see the parts where he deals with this specifically.



So, ultimately the issue of polymerization should come down to fuel quality. Excess glycerin can lead to acrolein formation and polymerization. Excess water or other poor storage issues can lead to oxidation/polymerization of the biodiesel itself. Injection Pressure by itself shouldn't be an issue - but of course I could be wrong. "



So what has started as a B100 and HPDI engine problem is more likely to be a bad fuel problem that was uncovered BY the pressures of the HPDI (Common Rail for us 3rd Genners).



What does this mean to us? The quality and nature of the fuel matters more if you're running a 3rd Gen. The D6751 standard matters more. The microbe content matters more. The amount of water in the fuel matters more. And running pure veggie on a 3rd gen can be more more problematic if you can't control the impurities and water in the oil.



Also -- There is evidence that the polymerization problem is less likely to occur if the biodiesel is animal based such as beef tallow because it's properties are different that plant oils. I'm no scientist but from what I've read some plant oils (soybean for example) is more unstable at a molecular level and will bind closer to water molecules. Our fuel / water separator system isn't as good at removing water from plant oil as it is with petro or animal. Water apparently one of the elements that can encourage this polymerization to occur. Microbes is another. So if one is to use the more common plant-based biodiesel it's even more important that it meets the D6751 standard, doesn't have water and is free of microbes.



I'm a 100% novice at this and it's possible that some of my analysis is slightly off or even grossly off but this is what I have gathered to this point.



Please read more about it in this two page thread at the biodiesel forum:



http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3829



which discuss this thread at the diesel stop:



http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubb...1958567&page=2&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1



One last note -- More common sense evidence that the bus Colorado B100 Trasit filter clogging problems were more related to fuel quality than HPDI issues is that I found there are people out there running B100 on 3rd Gens / Duramax / Powerstrokes (they approach 30,000 psi) and they're not having troubles. When they do have troubles, they worry it's the B100 but then they often find it is a mechanical problem that others are having with their line / model year of truck. There was a gentleman who had a pump failure on the biodiesel board. It was the pump at the gas tank I believe. Anyway, the poor guy was terrified that the B100 caused it. But when he took his truck in to the dealer they found there were TSB's on the issue with his pump / model year and they fixed it under warranty. Same types of events have happened with the 6. 0 powerstrokes. Early engines had lots of problems but when B100 users boiled them down they were usually engine problems that were unrelated to fuel type.



Another last note -- The "damage" caused to this Colorado Transit Authorities Cummins engines was limited to having to change their filters weekly to keep running. Once they went to a B20 ratio with the low quality bio portion of the blend, their problems subsided. But it's reasonable to believe they subsided not because of the ratio of biodiesel is 20% but the ratio of bad diesel was reduced to 20%.



Please let me know what I got right, what I got wrong and what you all think.



Thanks!

 

[Sled Dog]

Thank you, that's the info I have been needing.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"What does this mean to us? The quality and nature of the fuel matters more if you're running a 3rd Gen. The D6751 standard matters more. The microbe content matters more. The amount of water in the fuel matters more. And running pure veggie on a 3rd gen can be more more problematic if you can't control the impurities and water in the oil. "





IF I was a 3rd generation owner, faced with the likelyhood that such a production flaw could so easily happen to guys in the BUSINESS of making biodiesel, with first class equipment and testing capabilities, *I* would sure be nervous about considering making my OWN, out in my backyard!

 

[HEMI®Dart]

Good research & write-up , Jay

 

[67guzzler]

Questions and answers....

IF I was a 3rd generation owner, faced with the likelyhood that such a production flaw could so easily happen to guys in the BUSINESS of making biodiesel, with first class equipment and testing capabilities, *I* would sure be nervous about considering making my OWN, out in my backyard!

Gary -- I couldn't agree more. If someone wants to go 100% bio on a 3rd gen like me -- the bio better be fresh, conform with the D6751 standard including the all-important water content limit of the standard. The documented damage that I could find, however, was limited to clogged filters with plastic like particles. There was FEAR of injector damage but nothing that I could find documented. The filters collected the particles resulting from polymerization.



So it appears to me that the focus of the question changes from "If I run B100 on my 3rd gen, will I hurt it?" to "Will this particular batch of B100 I run hurt my 3rd gen because it doesn't conform to the D6751 standard?" These are two different questions and your point Gary nails the fact that the 2nd question (thankfully) is probably the relevant one. I say thankfully because if the 2nd question is the relevant one, then the implication is that running quality D6751 B100 is the only requirement to worry about. Sadly -- biodiesel is in it's infancy and I think there are growing pains to be had. Considering this, I feel that people like me with HPDI engines will have less of a "safety buffer" for bad batches of fuel -- fuel that may even be D6751 certified.

Good research & write-up , Jay

Thanks HD.



I also want to post another thread from the BioDieselNow forums that I forgot to post above. It's titled "B100 in Common Rail Inj. Vehicles" and I think you'll find it interesting too. It basically mimics what I found:



http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5442



This is the best I could do so far in trying to research this from a layman's perspective. I think it's unlikely that all 100% of what I reported here and in the first post above is correct due to insufficient cohesive data available. Something tells me that there will be a "shakeout" period over the next months and years as the quality, handling and storage of the biodiesel supply continues to improve.



In the meantime, the one worthwhile conclusion and objective everyone can agree on is that we need to try to get the best quality biodiesel we can regardless of the diesel engine we're putting it in, and pay attention to the results.

 

[bighornram]

Very nice job Jay. So now I am wondering if as 3rd genner it would be a good idea to add a fuel drying agent routinely to the bio. Would this stablize the bio or at least help some if you get a marginal batch?

 

[67guzzler]

I was thinking the same thing. I was obsessing a bit on the water but there are also other factors. Poorly processed batches of bio with glycerol still in the fuel (suspected in the Colorado transit case) is also a problem and can cause Polymerization. Oxidative Polymerization is also a problem -- this is where air gets to the biodiesel due to bad storage.



Regarding Oxidation, the author of the logic paper (link above) states:



"It is certain that producers will be aware of the problem of oxidation and will take appropriate steps to minimize oxidation in long-term storage, the simplest of which is the exclusion of air. Antioxidants may also be added. Addition of antioxidants would be a matter to be decided between producer and wholesale purchaser and should not be the subject of a standard. Most fuel will be consumed before oxidation becomes a concern. "



The key here is MOST fuel will be consumed before oxidation becomes a concern.



So if someone would please make an additive that dispurses water, counteracts residual glycerine and is an antioxidant, we'll be all set!



Power Services Diesel Kleen seems to have many of these properties:



* Reduces visible exhaust emissions (HC, PM) up to 50 percent and reduces NOx and CO emissions up to 28 percent

* Boosts cetane up to 6 numbers - engines run smoother with less power lag, reduced emissions and easier cold starts

* Decreases fuel consumption up to 8 percent - fuel savings exceed cost of additive

* Cleans dirty fuel injectors - exceeds Cummins L10 Injector Depositing Test Superior specifications

* Contains Slickdiesel® for maximum fuel lubrication - protects fuel injectors and pumps against accelerated wear from Low and Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) fuels

* Reduces piston and combustion chamber deposits - reduces soot blow-by and engine oil thickening

* Increases power - reduces need for downshifting during high-load conditions

* Exceeds industry standards for thermal stability - improves diesel fuel's resistance to thermal and oxidative degradation

* Protects against fuel system corrosion - exceeds D665A Rust Test specification

* Stabilizes stored fuel - protects against conditions that promote microbial growth

* Does not contain any alcohol of any kind

* Does not affect sulfur content of diesel fuel



I'll call them tomorrow to see if it's compatible with all types (animal and veg) of biodiesel.



Thanks JWolf!

 

[67guzzler]

I found yet another article:



"TECHNICAL STATEMENT ON THE USE OF BIODIESEL FUEL IN COMPRESSION IGNITION ENGINES"



By the Engine Manufacturers Association.



It seems to officially answer why (we already knew it was an aribrary CYA number) the B5 number is the magic number for US auto makers.



It's two years old, is in PDF format and is very informative.



http://www.enginemanufacturers.org/admin/library/upload/297.pdf

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"* Exceeds industry standards for thermal stability - improves diesel fuel's resistance to thermal and oxidative degradation"



I hafta say, that in 10+ years using PS additive, I have NEVER seen the slightest evidence of water in my fuel, and I have 2 separate water drains in my fuel system. Of course, until last Fall, we have always lived in a moderate N. California climate, and that probably helps too...

 

[JGK]

Jay,



Very good research and reporting. This kind of in-depth discovery is vital to all of us looking to run bioD. But now I step back and ask what does this mean to me as a CTD owner who wants to brew bioD and run it in the truck? Can one reliably and consistently brew bioD at home and not have these problems - assuming one has a common rail system (I don't, by the way)? Maybe.



The process of making bioD has 2 steps after the initial transesterification (did I spell that right?): the wash process and the drying process. The wash process involves mixing water with the bioD to remove any suspended left-over glycerin, alcohol, etc. and is usually done 4 times. This can take up to 2 days. The drying process involves circulating the bioD in a tank that exposes it to the air and lets the water evaporate, which can take from a few hours to a week depending on the temperature of the ambient air. Of course storage would mean keeping it in a tightly sealed, clean drum or some such.



Gary's comment that commercial producers are the most likely to be able to ensure the process is done right is easy to agree with. But they apparently failed. However given that commercial bioD production is fairly new, and a company trying to make a go of it has to weigh the cost of production vs. making money at it, I'm not surprised that the end product is not always perfect. I'm not inclined to agree that because they couldn't, I obviously can't.



Assuming one does these steps religiously and doesn't get sloppy, I think it's possible to meet the demands of the common rail systems of the 3rd gen trucks. (Fortunately for me, I run an old, more tolerant 2nd gen 12-valve!) Plus adding some sort of additive that reduces the propensity for oxidation and microbial growth is even better. My only concern with Power Service's statements about Diesel Kleen is the fact that their statements are extremely vague. I'd want to know more - get some hard data with numbers, if that's possible, particularly any related specifically to its use with bioD.



In any case, be it Diesel Kleen or another brand, use of an additive should be considered with 3rd gen CTD owners running bioD.



So, to summarize, it is obviously most important to maintain the quality of bioD produced if its to be run in a common rail based engine as opposed to the older trucks and an additive should be considered. If you're going to brew this stuff and use it, be anal about how you make it and store it, and keep a few spare filters on hand! But apparently no long term permanent damage is likely to happen. I still plan to make it and use it. Maybe not B100, but at least B50, weather (temps) permitting.



-(another) Jay

 

[roverhybrids]

I have an 04. 5 dodge that I've been running on blends of biodiesel and straight waste vegetable oil since new. Currently 16,500 miles. Approx 6000 of which is WVO(my truck is converted to use SVO/WVO in a custom second tank). The rest being straight no 2, b100 or a blend. The biodiesel that I've used has only been the ASTM stuuf, no home brew. My truck runs excellent, just filled up the stock tank with b100 made from WVO.

 

[EBottema]

I would not run a HPCR engine with 100 percent veggie oil or b100... . tolerances are too tight... b50 might be okay... maybe even b80... . save the b100 for the 12v. ha

 

[67guzzler]

I have an 04. 5 dodge that I've been running on blends of biodiesel and straight waste vegetable oil since new. Currently 16,500 miles. Approx 6000 of which is WVO(my truck is converted to use SVO/WVO in a custom second tank). The rest being straight no 2, b100 or a blend. The biodiesel that I've used has only been the ASTM stuuf, no home brew. My truck runs excellent, just filled up the stock tank with b100 made from WVO.

Have you been monitoring your fuel filter? Do you have any findings to report? Thanks.

 

[LightmanE300]

jgann, did you get your bio in 55 gal drums? look into dessicating vent filters like those sold on avlube.com . they help keep the fuel dry. racor biocide isnt a bad idea either if youre gonna store it. i've stored b100 drums for months with no issues.

 

[67guzzler]

So, to summarize, it is obviously most important to maintain the quality of bioD produced if its to be run in a common rail based engine as opposed to the older trucks and an additive should be considered. If you're going to brew this stuff and use it, be anal about how you make it and store it, and keep a few spare filters on hand! But apparently no long term permanent damage is likely to happen. I still plan to make it and use it. Maybe not B100, but at least B50, weather (temps) permitting.

Jay,



Regarding home brews -- I think that if a person gets all the glycerine out, all the water out, stores it properly and tests the fuel, I can't see why it wouldn't be ok to brew their own biodiesel. Biodiesel Solutions has a starter kit that will teach you how to make a small batch of fuel and then test it. They do make it appear to be an easy process but I don't know if it's really the case. If a person who brews their own doesn't have a breakdown test of the elements of the resulting product, it's unknown what the results will be. In this case, I think that a blend with D2 or even commercial biodiesel will help mitigate the problems caused by a questionable batch of home brew.



In general, if the fuel is commercial D6751 that is proper, the notion that you can only run B50 or at the most B80 but not B100 doesn't make sense to me given what I've learned so far. It appears that there is no issue with properly manufactured D6751 biodiesel so running B100 should be fine. However, if the fuel is suspect OR the person is very conservative, I think that running B50 blends or lower is understandable. Obviously by running a blend what you're doing is limiting the ratio of harmful elements that make up the fuel as a whole.



But the same logic has to work for running straight B100 acquired from two different sources. For example -- I see no difference between running commercial B50 vs. running two different brands / sources of B100 in a 50/50 ratio. If the issue is fuel quality, then by diversifiying the sources for the B100 should effectively accomplish the same goal as running B50.



Regaring WVO / SVO -- because I'm basically uninformed on the subject I have questions about running WVO or even virgin SVO in the HPDI engines.



Here are some definitions:



SVO = straight vegetable oil (virgin oil, fresh, uncooked)

WVO = waste vegetable oil (used cooking oil, "grease", fryer oil, including tallow, fats)



The good folks like roverhybrids are running SVO/WVO apparently without incident. People need people who are willing to experiment. But the question about the effects (polymerization, etc... ) of running WVO or even SVO in a HPDI / CRD engine that compresses it above 23,000 PSI (just under 30,000 PSI in the powerstroke) is still open. It may be a non-issue. I surely don't know and wouldn't want to suggest that there will be problems.



A ton of information regarding SVO is available at http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html and it is very interesting. I'm not sure it's 100% impartial but it sure is informative.

 

[67guzzler]

jgann, did you get your bio in 55 gal drums? look into dessicating vent filters like those sold on avlube.com . they help keep the fuel dry. racor biocide isnt a bad idea either if youre gonna store it. i've stored b100 drums for months with no issues.

I will LightmanE300 -- Thanks for the tips!

 

[bighornram]

jgann, did you get your bio in 55 gal drums? look into dessicating vent filters like those sold on avlube.com . they help keep the fuel dry. racor biocide isnt a bad idea either if youre gonna store it. i've stored b100 drums for months with no issues.

LightmanE300, where do you get these vent filters and biocide? What do they do?

 

[roverhybrids]

Have you been monitoring your fuel filter? Do you have any findings to report? Thanks.

The first 9xxx miles were on the stock filter running blends of biodiesel. Only 1 or 2 tanks of b100. Mostly around b20-b50 because it is not always available to me.



I'm running two FASS systems on my truck, one for WVO the other for diesel/biodiesel. I have a pressure gauge just before the IP. I haven't changed the filter(s) yet.



I prefilter my own WVO to 3 micron. I also use WVO from a friend thats prefiltered to 10 micron.



I carry replacement filters with me in the truck for when the pressure drops.

 

[67guzzler]

Glad to see that it appears your filters aren't the worse for wear. It's a good sign.



Got off the phone with Power Service Products (PSP). Nice guy. He told me they finished participating in a study late last year with the Department Of Energy (DOE) with a bus line who was running biodiesel. The DOE isn't happy about the high nox emissions with biodiesel and wanted to find a supplement that reduced them.



They found that the Diesel Kleen® +Cetane Boost® reduced the NOx emissions from 9 to 28%. The DOE was only hoping for a 2% reduction so apparently they are thrilled.



[size=-2]Additive Cuts NOx and Consumption, DOE Finds



by Terrence Nguyen, web editor, FleetOwner / www.fleetowner.com



Dec 2, 2004 2:46 PM



The Dept. of Energy (DOE) recently recognized Power Service Products (PSP) for its fuel additive that significantly decreases NOx emissions while improving fuel economy.



In a DOE-backed pilot program, PSP’s Diesel Kleen additive was found to reduce fuel consumption 4% while cutting NOx emissions 9% to 28% for transit buses running biodiesel, said PSP.



In conventional diesel blends, Diesel Kleen would provide similar improvements in NOx emissions and fuel economy, David Doremus, PSP spokesman told Fleet Owner.



PSP was involved in a project with Nashville’s Metropolitan Transit Authority to reduce emissions and fuel consumption. PSP is a stakeholder in the Clean Cities of Middle Tennessee Coalition, a participant in DOE’s Clean Cities program.



“Power Service makes a wide range of additives that can dramatically reduce diesel fuel emissions and improve fuel economy,” said Ed Kramer, president of PSP. “For this to be formally recognized by a federal program charged with reducing fuel consumption is a great honor for our company. ” [/size]



In our phone conversation, PSP said that the Diesel Kleen +Cetane Boost doesn't have any anti-gel properties for those in cold climates but it has the most Cetane Boost of any of their products and will help reclaim some of the lost power caused by using biodiesel & help get a more efficient & complete burn.



He said that their conditioner which does have anti-gel isn't effective with biodiesel above B20 because the anti-gel mechanism is just designed for petrolium diesel -- so using the conditioner would be wasteful for blends above B20 and you'd get less Cetaine Boost than with the Diesel Kleen -- thus the Diesel Kleen recommendation.



More Importantly To Me: I told PSP that I wanted something to help fight oxidation, microbial growth & add to shelf life. I told him that I just wanted to dump the proper quantity of Diesel Kleen® +Cetane Boost® straight into the drums stored in my garage to protect the stored B95 I have. He said that it would work just fine this way. He confirmed that Diesel Kleen +Cetane Boost is compatible with all biodiesel -- vegetable and meat tallow. He said he would email me some more literature regarding the use of Diesel Kleen +Cetane Boost with biodiesel.



Sorry to sound like and advertisement for PSP -- not my intent. I'm sure there are other great products out there and don't want to turn this into an additive debate. Just was reporting the conversation.

 

[HEMI®Dart]

Jay,



Any idea where to buy Diesel Kleen? Power Service won't answer email.