Service for Formula 1 Mach 5 Injections

[Joe Mc]

Guessing the sticks need to be gone thru, pop tested or whatever needs to be done? Not quite sure? So a brief: I've had them on since, forget when but they first went in date wise see signature for date with dyno 525hp/1000tq. I'm guessing mileage wise around 100k ago. Some time, probably a few years back I noticed when on highway running around 70 or so if I went full throttle as speed increases it would sort of have a stumble. So I'm guessing one or more of them are not fueling correctly. Looking for someone who might know what's going on and if you think they can be serviced/saved, or if replacement (@ around $1k) is only alternative. Lastly, if servicing can restore, does anyone know of a tits-up, trustworthy, knowledgeable shop around Levittown, PA 19057 area that I can bench the sticks to and have them addressed. I just got back on road after a few months of being down as I took my time to correctly replace the; outer & internal rocker and floor pan vertical drop along with rear cab corner. I just want to get her 100% again. She runs awesome except for the WOT stumble/sort of miss thing that's been going on. Thanks

 

[NIsaacs]

Does it make a difference what level your comp is on?

 

[Joe Mc]

Good point, thanks, forgot to mention when on highway edge always at 1/1 say at 70 - 75-ish (between 1900-2100 rpm) and I'll got wot as its pulling in its usual awesome way it's fine till roughly 90-ish then the sort of stumble starts. It'll act fine from stand still with edge at 1/1 or 5/5 after smoke starts to clear and really starts pulling, hits 2nd gear and rpms start climbing. before 2-3 shift, it'll start the chug/sort of miss. The other day had son-in-law with me and showing him power difference between 1/1 and 5/5 beginning wot at about 10-15 mph on 1/1 stumble came in as usual towards end of 1-2 shift, when on 5/5 same go to wot at 10-15 mph towards end of 1-2 shift stumble started and I think I heard a sort of pop from exhaust and eased of go pedal. Oh, also it has been hazing at idle more than what I'd consider normal for sometime now. Thanks

 

[Joe Mc]

Bump up. Would really like to get this figured out. Thanks guys and gals.

 

[Chief USA]

I'm following this thread too. I have the Mach 2.5 injectors and have had this issue in the past. Short of pulling the injectors to send out and have pop tested and spray pattern checked, I found that a periodic long up hill pull at near max power along with a judicious treatment with injector cleaner this seems to alleviate the issue to some degree. However, the underlying problem appears from time to time. Until I saw this post, I was thinking that perhaps because my truck sits a lot may be a factor. I have about 87,000 original miles on my truck.

 

[Timd32]

Couple places I ran across, these folks are the most local I could find and they might be one stop shop. So far thats the best I saw on line, maybe someone has used them.

https://www.gardenstatediesel.com/


You could send them out a place like DAP, they are pretty good from what I have read about.

https://www.dieselautopower.com/

Shop wise........
Only place I have heard of is a ways north of you, in Clinton, NJ. I dont know them but I used to work around the corner from them and they had a very good local following and were involved at the local drag strip and pulling events.

Looking at their FB page dont know if they are even open since their last post is 2018 or may

www.Blacksmokeindustries.com

Then the only others I saw on the web that were closer but still not close. Again no experience with any of these.

https://jasonsrepair.com/dodge-cummins-diesel-repair-pa/

 

[Joe Mc]

Thanks.
Chief, as for uphill full power run. This, full power run, is where the issue takes place and if I stay in it the anomaly just continues. I religiously fuel up at the same fuel stop that is busy with diesel customers, I only use hot shots secret snake oils; EDT at every fill up, exceptions are in winter when I'll use their winter blend if temps dip close to below 40° or every 6k miles I use their diesel extreme and I keep a bottle of 911 in the truck for that just in case situation. Also their oil products at changes.
Timd32, thanks for possible locals to me, appreciate you looking to find and sharing what you know / don't know about them.

Since I'm fortunate to have another vehicle (2011 Prius, 50mpg) I'm going to try to reach out to Don/F1 and see what, if anything they can do.
Thanks again, I'll keep updated as things progress.

 

[Chief USA]

I feed and care for mine nearly exactly the same as you do, yet occasionally the issue appears. I'll be looking forward to what you find out from Don.

 

[Joe Mc]

Sorry for long, but need some help here.

I sent sticks to Don. They reported that 2 were good the other 4 wouldn't chatter. I had them bump from 5's to 5.5's. Got them back and installed. No more stumbling. However, a new issue arose When I put it into D from P the idle changed = increased abruptly then settled in as usual, odd I thought? Then immediately upon 1st run, after a few WOT pulls (1 with Edge at 1/1 and then at 5/5) to show a buddy of mine how its running, and after driving a minute or two I stopped to back up (I always put in N before going from D to R or R to D, and typically when at a traffic light I place in N) put in N then into R and it stalled=WTF!!! This "NEVER EVER, EVER" happened before, started right up but wondering WTF changed??? Only thing that changed was the injectors...

So I figured it would clear up, nope, still same thing. Really odd doesn't mater if the engine is cold or at full operating temps (including trans temp) when I put in gear the idle abruptly increases for a split second and/or stalls. It runs awesome when your running, really confused...

So I sent April (@ Don's) an email explaining the situation offering to send a video with sound if that would help.
*After talking with Don she replied, "There is a 99% chance there is an issue with the injector seating with a connector tube. You should be able to back everything off and re-install to fix the problem". BTW no response regarding my offer to send video with sound...
*I replied, "Sounds logical. So loosen injector top hold downs (strongbacks under valve cover) then loosen injector supply line nuts, re-tighten supply line nuts and then tighten injector hold downs. Will give that a shot and let you know".
*She replied, "Yes sir! And check the valve lash as well".
* I replied, "I acquired new o-rings at the local Cummins shop and installed them yesterday. Upon inspection of the supply tubes the #4 o-ring had a slight tear (I sent a picture). From memory, the #4 injector was the worst looking of the set I sent. No more stalling, yeah! I also checked the valve lash (cold) which, since the first time (@ 100k miles, presently 255k) I've always set @ IN 0.010" & EX 0.020", only 3 rockers were slightly off. There's still a blip in idle that never occurred before when going from neutral to to D or R, but no more stalling. I'm thinking once the ol' 24 valve gets used to having a new tune it'll settle in."

After driving it around for the day it stalled on me 2 or 3 times, so I sent another email-> "Looks like I spoke to soon. It stalled 2 times today going from D to R. Any ideas? I could send a video/sound file if that might help?"
*She replied, "In the past we have seen a worn pump cause this issue and if the torque converter is real tight, that can do it as well. I am not saying that is what it is but it has been a problem for guys in the past."
*I replied, "I can see a bad pump causing something like that. Just weird that all of the sudden with tuned up injectors it started. It's almost like it idles too low. VP isn't original one I replaced with new Bosch some years back and have a Walbro pusher on the frame, 2 filters big line kit, gauge is steadily from idle up to wide open throttle regardless of setting on Edge Comp. I'll check all electrical connections and throw another ground from engine to body and then to frame on and see what happens".

So that was yesterday, 9/16/2020, and I haven't driven it since and haven't done anything yet. Thankfully I have a 2nd car to drive.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the renewed sticks and I seriously doubt that all of the sudden the VP decided to act out, but WTF could be going on? I cleaned the tubes (removing and reinstalling "one at a time" to be sure same tubes whet back in same holes) before installing tubes with new o-rings I put fresh oil on them. When I say "cleaned" I mean, I wiped them off with a lint free cloth, blew thru them, wiped dry, made sure o-ring groove was clean and dry, then rolled o-rings on, oiled them and they pushed right back in the hole stopped at o-ring, then with light finger pressure a slight "click" and they were seated into the injector. I tightened high psi line nuts, checked torque on the injector hold downs/strongbacks and then checked valve lash. 3 rockers had lash that allowed the feeler gauge to slide out too easily (for me) so I set them as I always did (0.010" Intake & 0.020" Exhaust), no change, same thing, DRIVING ME NUTS!!!!

Any experience with this situation or ideas on where to go next? BTW this situation occurs regardless of Edge settings and/or if it is off all together or on...

HELP, PLEASE!?!?!???

 

[NIsaacs]

Read this thread all the way, it might help.

https://mopar1973man.com/topic/9721-odd-injector-misfire/

 

[DavidC]

So it could be the crossovers ?

 

[NIsaacs]

So it could be the crossovers ?

In this instance it was but Joe's issue is a little different. But maybe some of the troubleshooting might help.

 

[Joe Mc]

Thanks guys. I'm going to give the new crossovers a shot. Should have pricing tomorrow. Don's 1st thought, 99% sure, was a tube o-ring leaking. I received a reply from April after posting today saying the only way to rule out the injectors is for them to build me a new set. I'm on the fence... Over the years I've had (counting originals and the present ones) 5 sets of sticks, it's probable that one, or more, of the tubes could be off a bit = not fully sealing? Either way I can eliminate one of the two possibilities = sticks or tubes. Will update, probably next week depending on price and availability of tubes.

 

[NIsaacs]

I have a set of these on order, seems like a good price for Bosch tubes. I also have set of RV injectors on order but they are on back order due to the virus. Been about a month now, the tubes are in stock or were. I have 315k miles on the current RV's, still runs great but once in a while I get a hard overnight start when the fuel tank is about half full.

https://www.dieselautopower.com/bosch-cross-over-fuel-connector-tube-set-of-6-f00zr20002x6

 

[NIsaacs]

So I sent April (@ Don's) an email explaining the situation offering to send a video with sound if that would help.
*After talking with Don she replied, "There is a 99% chance there is an issue with the injector seating with a connector tube. You should be able to back everything off and re-install to fix the problem". BTW no response regarding my offer to send video with sound...
*I replied, "Sounds logical. So loosen injector top hold downs (strongbacks under valve cover) then loosen injector supply line nuts, re-tighten supply line nuts and then tighten injector hold downs. Will give that a shot and let you know".
*She replied, "Yes sir! And check the valve lash as well".

HELP, PLEASE!?!?!???

When I see threads on injector install, this procedure appears to be the accepted procedure. However, the FSM says torque the injectors first then the tubes/lines.

I go one step farther and torque them both a small amount in sequence. Back and forth until final torque.

 

[Joe Mc]

Well Cummins is high (not sure on what???) first they tell me the tubes aren't available individually and only as a kit for $68.00 (my price) then I call this morning spoke with same person, 2 hours later she gets back to me saying they're $48 each = $288, and only sold individually. WTF? The ones in the link provided by NIsaacs seems like the way to go. Just ordered tube set, tube o-rings, stick o-rings and stick seals + 2 day shipping = all in $232.

 

[DavidC]

I sure hope these fix your problem Joe. I really hate throwing parts at problems but I have no idea on this one to isolate the problem.

 

[Joe Mc]

I hear ya on that DavidC. I hate throwing parts too. I figured since I've changed the sticks 5 times there's a chance I over-torqued the line nuts and could have damaged a tube or more? And in working with Don (via emails) the new o-rings were a cheap shot at trying. So I want to give every opportunity to make certain what's going on is, or isn't, related to the rebuilt sticks before I take them up on offer to build a new set for me. I figure in 07 I paid $1k for the Mach 5's got well over 120k miles out of them and got them rebuilt (to 5.5's) for $600, I feel it necessary to replace the wear items before pointing the finger at the sticks. I just hope the problem is resolved with the new parts. Should arrive Monday. Will post up results.
Keep your appendages crossed for me folks LOL

 

[Joe Mc]

Check this thread out
https://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/solved-starting-issue-on-98-5.269952/
Note my reply. Dosen't make sense that it could be overflow valve but...
Thoughts?
New tubes and seals are "supposed" to arrive tomorrow, we'll see...

 

[DavidC]

Anything can happen, but I do not think that's your problem. I changed mine and later realized the lift pump was not running at times. I finally partially unplugged a very large connector on the Drivers side firewall and reseated it. Haven't had a problem since although I did wire in a bypass switch. If you have a valve handy and want to ease your mind it doesn't take much to change.