Sheetrock/drywall dudes - advice needed

[HoleshotHolset]

Here's the deal: I've been finishing the 2nd bedroom/bathroom of my house since July in my spare time and now we're getting down to brass tacks.



I had an experienced local drywall contractor walk through the house on Saturday AM to give me an estimate to mud/tape and texture the walls/ceilings in the house... as well as sand/repair nasties left behind by the previous owner.



Long story short - he sent me an estimate in the mail and quoted me over $2200. I haven't spent that much money on dang near the whole project - including buying tools. This is for the walls/ceilings in a bedroom, a small bath ($870), front room downstairs... and ceilings only in the living/dining rooms ($1350). (He split it up so that we didn't have to empty the whole house out before he started the work... )



My questions about sheetrock finishing are as follows:

1) Is sheetrock mud like Goldschläger - does it have little flakes of gold in it?!

2) Are bikini-clad models doing the work? If so, can we hire dropouts from "America's Next Top Model" to save a few bucks?



Don't get me wrong - the house will probably look MINT after he's done, but the price just seems a bit off for how small the house is, etc.



When I moved in - every wall/ceiling in the place (that actually had sheetrock on it... ) had this bumpy texture on it. It's the type of stuff that will easily grind the skin off your knuckles. To keep things the same, he suggested that we do the same thing on the parts of the house that aren't finished. Is this texturing the part that is putting things over the edge?



Lastly, I've heard of this product that you spray onto the sheetrock (without even mudding/taping) and you end up with the textured finish and don't have to mess around with sanding an all that good stuff - is this folklore/urban legend?



If there are any contractors in my area that are looking to bid on this or want to barter with me, I'd definitely consider that.



As always - thanks for listening and offering any advice.



Cheers,



Matt

 

[BarryG]

I cant answer any of your questions until you get towards the end. We finished our basement years ago. The spraying texture part is a good way to make it easier but you do need to tape and mud (at least we did) I dont know how you could get away without taping the joints. However you dont have to do much sanding at all as the texture will cover it up. You can also rent the sprayer and diy. If you are looking for like an orange peel texture easy enough to diy. If you want some sort of knockdown texture finish you have to have a bit more skill (which I dont have) but with practice you could do that too diy

 

[JApol]

I worked for a guy who tapes and textures. I learned so much from him on how to make even my dads drywall work look good. Sorry dad.

• Get yourself a 6", 8" and 12" mud knives with the long skinny plastic or metal container for your mud. Optional are the inside and outside corner knifes.
  
  
  
• If you have large amounts of mudding to do get the boxes of mud. Find your self a 5 gallon bucket. Dump the shole box of mud in it and fill the rest with water. One way to mix it is an over size "potatom masher". It looks like it but just fits in the bucket. There is also a drill attachment that requires MUCh less of a work out. Mix the mud into a light texture that will almost slide off the knife.
  
  
  
• The factory long edge has a bevel on it. Everything else is a but edge. Find all your bevel to but joints and fill in the bevel before you start to tape. All these joints will be treated at but to but joint.
  
  
  
• get your 6" knife and tape all your joints and all your screw holes.
  
• use your 8" knife after all the joints have dried and go over all the joints again. With all your but to but joints put the edge of the knife on the center of the tape on each side to make a 16" stripe of mud. Go over your screw holes again as the mud has shrunk during drying.
  
  
  
• Sand all mud
  
  
  
• Go over all joints with the 12" knife and treat the but to but joints as above to make a 24" stripe.
  
  
  
• sand again and after masking you are ready for texture.
  

When doing the 8" and 12" stripes on the but to but joints put most of the pressure on the outside edge and none on the tape. This will make a gradual slope to the top of the tape making it less apparent. It take some work but by the time you get done you should be able to make a nice job.

If you don't thin out the mud you WILL have fore-arms like Pop-eye

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Thanks for the advice guys - I REALLY appreciate it.

I think I may tackle this on my own - heck, I can certainly think of better things to do with $2200! Besides, the texture hides a lot of flaws...



I called the contractor back and asked for more information on the estimate - especially why it seemed so pricey. I hope he gets back to me.



No offense to people that do this stuff for a living, but the estimate just made me feel like I was being taken for a ride. At most, we're looking at a few hundred bucks in materials... and it just doesn't seem right to charge $2000 worth of labor to finish ~900ft² of drywall. (At $50/hr - that's 40 hours of work!)



Thanks,



Matt

 

[rbattelle]

I think I may tackle this on my own - heck, I can certainly think of better things to do with $2200!

I think you can do it, no problem. It only takes time. Remember: you can always fix mistakes with more sanding.



Ryan

 

[CSnyder]

Matt, any moron wrench turning guy can manage to tape and mud! Just ask me! LOL

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

When I was a pup I started in the carpentry business hanging rock and roofing. Many moons ago, of course. The cardinal rule for DIYers was go ahead and hang the rock, BUT have a pro do the taping. Have you looked for competing bids? How about a small herd of illegals? :-laf



I've done my own taping on a small scale, a whole house can be a project.

 

[TORQUE THIS]

If I was closer Matt I'd take care of it for ya... Unless ya fly me out for a week... :-laf It would be so nice to get away...

 

[WDaniels]

Holeshot,

I use to do drywall. Learned how to tape, use a banjo, stilts and finish seams. Just enough to know that it isn't my bag of tea.

The texture that you are talking about sound like an "orange peel". It looks like the bumps on an orange. Small and sparce is a light orange peel, a little larger and fairly good coverage is a medium and heavy is big dots all over and overlapping. The texture is to break up the smooth surface and to keep finger prints, smudges and dirt from showing up so readily. If the guy has to sand alot down to get to the drywall to tape or remove tape that is a time consuming process and messy. If he has to patch large holes that takes some ability because he now has to match the texture to what is already on the walls. Sometimes they quote you so much is because small jobs like yours is a real killer for them. They can make much more money on new construction, faster with less effort. The small piece meal jobs are small potatoes for them and hence, large quotes. Hope this information helps.

WD

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Thanks for the advice and words of encouragement, gents.

The sheetrock dude hasn't called me back yet, but I intend on seeing if I can get someone else in there to offer another quote. I even offered him all the beer he can drink from the kegerator. :-laf



I really just want to finish this house and get it over with - but $2200+ ain't gonna fly to slap mud onto sheetrock.



Mark: Park the dually at T. F. Green - I'll buy you an e-ticket to Chicago and pick you up there.

Sometimes they quote you so much is because small jobs like yours is a real killer for them. They can make much more money on new construction, faster with less effort. The small piece meal jobs are small potatoes for them and hence, large quotes.

WD: Thanks for spelling this out - that makes sense. I kinda thought he tried to rake me over the coals since we discussed that between the wife and I we both owned houses when we met. (... and now we're finally getting close to selling my place so we can combine resources. ) Truth be known, we're making ends meet but not much more - so we're far from wealthy.



Thanks again, guys. I'll keep ya'all updated on things.



Matt

 

[Gene Arnold]

Matt,



Many, many years ago the men in our little church built an education addition on the sanctuary. These guys were all hard working farmers who weren't bad rough carpenters. We worked really hard through the Nebraska winter and when it came time to finish the sheetrock we all agreed that we were in over our heads. We hired a pro and he"covered a multitude of our sins!" Depending on how picky you and/or your wife are, when you are sitting in the new space you'll see every flaw in the place. I'd stretch my wallet and go for the pro.



Gene

 

[RKlaassen]

Holeshot,

WD is right. I've been doing contracting for almost 30 years now and it's not out of line for small drywall jobs to run 4 times the cost of new construction. If you decide to mud and tape it yourself, don't be fooled into thinking the texture will hide all the flaws. It's kind of like bondo under the paint and takes a little experience to know what you can get away with. All the drywallers I ever used always charged more for jobs they didn't hang. Takes more time to tape those small pieces some folks decide to try and use up than if they had just used full sheets instead and set nails and screws that are not in all the way. Get yourself a couple more bids and it will give you an idea of what it should really cost. Cruise some new construction and see if you can steal a taper that needs a few extra bucks for some weekend work. If you take it on yourself, it it doesn't come out the way you want, make sure you leave a good supply of interesting magazines in the bathroom, so you while you are sitting on the crapper, you'll have something else to look, at besides the ceiling. If you hire it out, you get to be picky. If you do hire a taper for weekend work, make sure to hold back enough bucks to keep him coming back to the job and I would be careful about any cash up front. But I am sure you already figured that out. Good luck.

Randy

 

[HoleshotHolset]

... when you are sitting in the new space you'll see every flaw in the place. I'd stretch my wallet and go for the pro.

See - that's the thing. We won't be sitting in this house much at all... I'm just finishing it off before selling it. I bought the place as a fixer-upper and it had a 2nd bedroom and 2nd bathroom that was nothing more than studs/insulation. I'm finishing off these rooms so I can sell the house as a 2-bed, 1. 75-bath house instead of a 1-bed, 1-bath house.

... it's not out of line for small drywall jobs to run 4 times the cost of new construction.

Wow. I can kinda see why - this sort of thing isn't their bread and butter. It's like buying a faucet from Home Depot and asking a plumber to install it for you - they'll rake you over the coals... right, wrong or indifferent.

... hold back enough bucks to keep him coming back to the job and I would be careful about any cash up front

See - I wouldn't know to do that. I'm used to gentlemen's agreements... but I've heard horror stories of a few guys taking cash and running after only doing a little bit of work. That's very good advice for any sort of work...



Thanks again for the help, folks. A friend of mine at work is lending me some sheetrocking tools - I'm probably going to give it a whirl this weekend... and see if I can find some smaller outfits to offer bids.



Matt

 

[RKlaassen]

Ok Matt,

If you are going to take this on, here are a few things that work well for me. I started doing my own small drywall jobs for the very reason you are doing your's. Price. First, make sure all the nails are dimpled and the screws are set. Drywall knives have that metal on the hande for a reason; hammering in the nails the hangers missed. Screws don't hammer so well. Use the box mud. It's cheaper than the bucket mud. If you use the light weight stuff, it is also smoother, easier to sand and the hard chuncks will eventially soften up. The all purpose is a few cents cheaper and stronger, but the crusty bits don't dissolve very well. Topping is nice to finish with, but it is really soft. Stay away from the dry mix "hot mud". Even the pros get jammed when that stuff decides to set off in 15 minutes, instead of the 45 it says on the bag. Careful on how much water you add. Less water = less shrinkage = fewer coats. Start off with maybe a cup or a pint to a box. Check the date on the boxes. It is all supposed to be the same from the factory, but it aint. If it feels too thick to flow on easily, add a little more H20. If it floats out too easy, less water. A thick sour cream or wet toothpast feel works best for me. Keep the sawdust, dry mud bits, ect. out of your mud. The little crusty bits are a major PITA to deal with and will leave tracks and pock marks you'll have to hit again. If you don't use up the whole batch of mud during one work session, clean the walls on the inside of your bucket and float an inch of water or so on top of what you have left. It will not set up as long as the fresh mud has water on top of it. When you start back up again, pour the water off the top and you are ready to go. Get a stainless steel mud pan. Well worth it for even the smallest job. I perfer to use paper tape. More of a pain to put on, but easier to finish in the long run. The mesh tape seems great, but it takes more finishing time to get the screen pattern to dissapear. It also is easy to tear when you use it in the corners. Put the mud on the joint, or back side of the tape, whatever works for you, just be sure the tape is completely imbedded, with most of the mud squeezed out and no air pockets. Try not to float any mud on the top side of the tape when you put it on. Wet tape is more prone to bubbles and the only way to fix them is to cut them out and retape the bad spot. If you just keep coating them, the bubble just stays there. Knife your long tape runs on from the center out to both ends. The tape streches a little from the wet mud and youll have smaller wrinkles to chase. DO NOT PUT ON ANOTHER COAT UNTIL THE FIRST COAT IS COMPLETELY DRY!!! I know it's hard to resist, but it softens the undercoat and you end up with the texture of grated cheese. Keep your coats even as you can, especially where you stop your knife strokes and the edges of your knife passes. You want to try and keep the edges of your knife passes so that there is no little trail of mud that slipped around the blade and left a ridge. Most of the 10" and bigger finish knives have a bow to the edge of the blade. Use the side that lets the corners of the blade touch the drywall first for most situations. Scrape the high spots (ridges, goobers) off of the dry areas you are going to be recoating with your knife, before you do another coat. I hate sanding and have found if I watch what I am doing, I only have to catch a few spots here and there. Don't worry about if you fill the electrical boxes with mud, the electricians don't mind at all cleaning them out for you. Get one of the little inside corner tools for the corners. It makes taping the corners a whole bunch easier. I use a 4" knife for the second coat on the corners. Round off one corner of your 4" knife with maybe a 1/8" radius. It will help to keep your knife from cutting the tape in the inside corner. Do one side, let it dry, then do the other. When you put on your outside corner bead or bullnose, make sure the nailing flange is below the profile of the outside bead, or you'll have a hell of a time trying to get mud to cover the metal flange. Tape on corners work good, but the paper takes a beating if you end up having to sand much. If you do an orange peel texture, Do a bunch of practice sprays with your hopper on some scraps until you figure out what air pressure, nozzle, trigger pull and mud viscosity is going to do what you want. On the better orange peel jobs they paint primer first, so it drys evenly. The mudded areas suck the water out of light textures and leave a little different finish than where there is paper. If it's a "knock down" texture, same deal with the samples. Spray it on and adjust the drying time that you wait, before you hit it with a wide knife. Well, I'm sure there are other guys out there with different approaches to all this, but this works for me. Have fun.

Randy

 

[ToolManTimTaylor]

Ahhh my eyes ..... they bleed :{



But he has it Ahem ..... Nailed

 

[Sled Puller]

I've done about half and half-if a guy is fast and good, its well worth $20 an hour. Any more than that, and I'd be willing to sand and fill until it was right.



A little extra knife work goes a long wayyyy in preventitive sanding!

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Randy: I'm printing that out - MANY thanks!



Gene: I'd happily pay $20/hr to have someone do it. However, if you take $2000 and divide it by $50/hr - that's 40hrs of labor. There's NO WAY it would take a pro 40hrs to do the job. If it was $20/hr - that's 100 man hours!



As for the texture, I'm almost certain it is called 'sand'. A friend of mine described it simply by saying: "You dump a special kind of sand into the paint and slap it on the walls/ceiling... "



Thanks, guys. I didn't get down to the house this weekend, but definitely plan on doing so this coming weekend. My wife is also going to help out - I think she's going to be really good at it.



Later,



Matt

 

[RKlaassen]

Hey Matt,

If the texture you have is what I think it is, they sell the stuff in three sizes of granules. It is actually ground walnut shells, so it is light enough to stay in suspension, when mixed with the paint. If you use regular sand, it ends up in the bottom of the can and you have to stir it all the time.



Randy

 

[REDDODGE]

How many sheets is it. They get around 10 bucks a sheet + material. Thats what my taper hits me for at least

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Randy: Thanks for the clarification. I'm not dead set on putting this texture into rooms where it doesn't already exist, but will probably be forced into doing it downstairs to make things match.



Here's the rundown (my numbers may be a tad off... I originally came up with ~900ft² or ~28 4'x8' sheets) from my foggy memory:

• 2nd Bathroom ~6 sheets - ceiling/walls - room is ~5'x10' L-shaped
  
• 2nd Bedroom ~16 sheets - ceiling/walls - ~10'x12' rectangular room with closet
  
• 'hallway'(?) ~3 sheets - ceiling/walls
  
• Living/dining room - ~14 sheets - just the ceiling (to replace a NASTY drop ceiling... ) - open layout... kinda hard to give x/y layout dimensions.
  

$10/sheet to mud and tape - SIGN ME UP!!!

I'd happily have someone do it for $500-1000 to get it done right, but not the $2200 I was quoted by the one local dude. (It's not even like the walls/ceilings will be totally finished either - I'd still have to paint and then put up trim. I'm not sure what kind of texture he was going to do with sheetrock mud to match the 'sand'... (??))



Thanks again for all your help, guys.



Matt