Shell Rotella conventional 15W-40 formulation updated to CK-4

[verk]

I've been using Rotella conventional 15W-40 oil for some time and in buying some for an oil changed noticed packaging changed. Trying to confirm it was the same product I noticed that the formulation has changed and spec has been updated to CK-4. I remember people suggesting CI-4 for pre DPF applications when CJ-4 came out. Anybody have any comments on this new spec or formulation for pre DPF applications ?

 

[Wayne M.]

I've always trusted that oil was backward compatible. Still doing homework on the new spec.

 

[Killer223]

i bought 60 gallons of 15/40. to hold me over for as long as i can. i'm sure the oil is fine, just keep it clean. clean oil is better then high dollar oil.

 

[amsoilman]

I've been using Rotella conventional 15W-40 oil for some time and in buying some for an oil changed noticed packaging changed. Trying to confirm it was the same product I noticed that the formulation has changed and spec has been updated to CK-4. I remember people suggesting CI-4 for pre DPF applications when CJ-4 came out. Anybody have any comments on this new spec or formulation for pre DPF applications ?

As I understand, the CK-4 Spec. is not to come out until December. Having said that, perhaps Shell has jumped the gun so to speak. The CK-4 spec is indeed "backwards compatible, so it certainly can be used in your application. The API FA-4 is NOT backwards compatible, and should only be used in 2017 and newer Diesels. The CK-4 has increased protection, and to meet federal regulations, OEM's are relying on engine designs that produce ever-increasing operating temperatures. The new CK-4 spec. introduce new shear-stability requirements to minimize Viscosity loss as well as two new and updated tests to insure additional protection benefits in the areas of oxidative stability and aeration resistance using a new MACK T13 test and a new CAT Aeration test.

 

[verk]

I was mistaken, sorry. Rotella packaging has changed, but this product is not CK-4. I must have gotten tripped up with below brochure which shows new packaging as being CK-4 product:

http://rotella.shell.com/products/r...4caad9/1135838-a07-rot16-t4-brochure-v2-shell

 

[JR]

The belief that the newer specd oils are inferior to the older CI4 spec has been refuted with hard data in the form of billions of miles driven and oil samples from large fleets as well as consumers. There is not one manufacturer that will recommended a CI4 product over current spec. In the decade and a half since CI4 was first adopted oil technology has advanced many times over.

 

[Wayne M.]

The API FA-4 is NOT backwards compatible, and should only be used in 2017 and newer Diesels.

Any idea what the "F" is all about? It's not "C" or "S"....

 

[JR]

According to Shell there was no specific reason for the letter F. The "A" was used because it's the first of a new series and the 4 is the diesel designation (CI4, CJ4, etc.).

 

[amsoilman]

Any idea what the "F" is all about? It's not "C" or "S"....

All I can say is this is a "NEW" API FA-4 rating that was introduced for 2017 and newer engines is designed to meet emissions standards, and is a new category of LOWER-VISCOSITY oils. It was created to further improve fuel economy and reduce emissions, while delivering the same enhanced protection and performance benefits of CK-4. As I understand it, the API F-4 oils will improve fuel economy in two ways; lower viscosity and reduced high -temperature/high-shear (HTHS). while the lubricant market has traditionally been dominated by 15W-40 oils, FA-4 will primarily be 10W-30 oils. In addition, because lower HTHS numbers are linked with improved fuel economy, the minimum HTHS for FA-4 is lower (2.9) than the minimum HTHS for CK-4 (3.5).

 

[Wayne M.]

So I guess API is changing their rating system away from the C and S classification.

 

[JR]

So I guess API is changing their rating system away from the C and S classification.

This isn't coming directly from API, but I imagine Shell has direct insight on the subject.

What does FA-4 stand for?
The “F” doesn’t really have a specific meaning. The API committee was foremost, looking for a naming convention that didn’t sound like “C” to reduce complications with phone ordering. However, the “A” denotes the first chapter/iteration of “F” designations, and “4” is the designation for diesel engine oils.

http://rotella.shell.com/products/pc-11.html

 

[EDankievitch]

One thing we need to watch is the reduction of Zinc in the oil. The EPA wants it removed so the after treatment system don't get contaminated causing them to fail sooner. Think of how Lead would take out a Cat in the early days. Only the issue with our engines is the Cam it needs the Zinc additive to protect it from wear. It's not an issue with the newer roller cam engines but very destructive to the older flat tappet cam engines .

 

[JR]

One thing we need to watch is the reduction of Zinc in the oil. The EPA wants it removed so the after treatment system don't get contaminated causing them to fail sooner. Think of how Lead would take out a Cat in the early days. Only the issue with our engines is the Cam it needs the Zinc additive to protect it from wear. It's not an issue with the newer roller cam engines but very destructive to the older flat tappet cam engines .

15 years ago that may have been true, but there are AW additives in current specd oils that exceed the performance of zinc.

It's just not an issue anymore.

 

[mwilson]

There will be a new diesel oil class coming out that for the first time will not be backwards compatable. Away from my notes right now but there will be the CK which is backwards compatable and a new class which is not. I have to create additional bulk storage by adding tanks soon at three of my locations as a result. I am not looking forward to the resulting confusion.

 

[EDankievitch]

We've seen too many cams fail on older marine engines of late with the newer oils. People try to save a buck and use what they think is the same weight oil from the local auto parts store with reduced Zinc and not the oil for marine engines with the Zinc.

15 years ago that may have been true, but there are AW additives in current specd oils that exceed the performance of zinc.

It's just not an issue anymore.

 

[JR]

We've seen too many cams fail on older marine engines of late with the newer oils. People try to save a buck and use what they think is the same weight oil from the local auto parts store with reduced Zinc and not the oil for marine engines with the Zinc.

How are marine engine components different in material from those engines that are found in construction equipment? Not trying to be argumentative, but reduced zinc levels have been the norm for better than a decade now. Unless one buys into Amsoil there's very few options out there.

We've got several examples of pre emission Cummins and Cat engines with well over 10,000 hard hours running CJ4 whatever was on sale at the time oil.

 

[DieselLady]

I agree with this. Cummins is a flat tappet cam and I have seen a lot of damaged cam shafts from people using CJ4 oil. And I doubt the GOV cares about how well it protects our engines. I also have a barrel of CI4 oil to carry me as far down the road as I can get before having to use the newer oils.

 

[lpennock]

Government only cares about emissions. If a change causes older vehicles to be removed from service sooner so they can be replaced with newer and "cleaner" they consider it a win/win situation.

 

[JR]

Can any of you please show me oil analysis from ONE engine failure that was due to lack of friction modifiers. I will bet money you cant. Seriously.

I would be happy to post up oil analysis of my 98 with annual oil changes ranging from15-20k mile intervals running CJ4 oil. This truck is low mileage at 140k miles but my former truck had the same regiment and it's got over 450k miles on the clock and counting. I can also post pictures of hour meters with pre emission engines with well north of 10k hours running nothing but CJ4 oil.

Let me know if your interested I'd be happy to post them up.

 

[Tractorat]

Can any of you please show me oil analysis from ONE engine failure that was due to lack of friction modifiers.

I dont have any credentials here. But I wouldnt expect to see an engine failure. But I might expect to see more oil usage and maybe some loss of power whether noticeable or not.
BTW, since I dont have any credentials here and look to the tdr for this kind of information, I stopped using delo years ago and now only use expensive red line synthetic thus eliminating the issue.