Siping and Tire Life

[rjrkihap]

When I bought my Toyo M-55 the tire shop had me sipe the center section of these tires. Said I'd see longer life and have better traction. I am not so sure??? I do believe that I do get better traction, however, am I sacraficing tire life in the process?



Thanks



Ron

 

[paccool]

I may be wrong but I think tire life is extended with the siping. It is not real common out here but the last set of tires on my company F-150 lasted 75,000 miles and still had lots of tread left but the side walls were starting to show some cracks and I had them replaced. (too much high speed freeway driving!)



Siping will allow the tire to stay in contact with the road and flex a little more in the tread so wear is reduced. The tire has more edges so traction is improved also. The last set I put on had quite a bit of siping already so I didn't have them done.

 

[keimmmo]

More life??? Anything that promotes tread flex will REDUCE tread life. With extra sipes you will lose a tiny bit of traction on dry pavement due to tread flex. On dry pavement it is all about rubber surface area in contact with the road... that is why slicks work on dry roads. However, extra sipes DO give better traction on everything else!



Adding a few new grooves or sipes to a worn tire REALLY improves their traction... again on everything BUT dry pavement. I have my own grooving tool and groove and sipe tires all the time.



Steve Keim

 

[Rotty]

Never again.

When I had my 99 dodge, I had the tires siped. The side walls chuncked and tread life was reduced.



If the road conditions are that bad, better stay at home or get some good chains.

 

[jkalchik]

Never again.

When I had my 99 dodge, I had the tires siped. The side walls chuncked and tread life was reduced.

Blame the tires, not the truck.



I've been running Goodyear MT/Rs on my Jeep Cherokee for the last 5 years. I wore out a set of 31x10. 50s (70,000 miles!) that were not siped. The 33x12. 50s I put on 2 years ago (used it as a daily driver for the next 8 months) I had siped. BIG difference in traction on any non-dry surface. No chunking of either the side lugs or the leading edges. Given that it's no longer a DD, I expect to get weather checking well before the tires wear out.



I'm currently running Michelin LTX M/S tires on my 99 CTD. Not much room for extra siping on these tires, like the MT/Rs.



If you're running tires with big block tread, siping *WILL* help in wet, snowy and icy weather.

 

[MCrossley]

going to the snow

So I have the stock BFG's and I know they suck in the rain can only imagine what they will be like in the snow, My michellins on my 01 were awsomein the snow and ice. So should I sipe the BFG's since I normally am in CA and it does not snow here...

 

[keimmmo]

Personally, I would never sipe a new tire unless it was for a very specific reason. I almost always add some groves after they get some wear on them. Only YOU can decide, but the normal recommendation is to buy/build for what you will need the majority of the time and tolerate it once in a while.



Steve Keim

 

[JJW_ND]

Just my observations.

I have not seen any increased wear with the 5 sets of tires I have ran with siping. This is even with heavy towing and all on highway driving. The tires I got the best mileage out of were Toyo M55 which would run 50 - 60K (under heavy towing conditions). Geolanders, GY AT, Dunlop AT all ran out of tread at 30 -40K (same conditions or less towing).



I have always had the tires siped from one edge to the other.



I did find when towing heavy, I could only sipe 50% tread depth when new and then the rest when the tread wore down or the heavy towing would feather the tread on the rears pretty bad. You get increadible traction in reverse (backing out of stuck situations) with these feathered sipes and very good breaking.



With a good set of siped tires, and the awsome LSD my 96 has, I could run 2WD in new snow up to several inches deep (breaking trail) towing TWO 22 foot or longer stock trailers (pulling doubles) at the same time. Many thousands of miles traveled with doubles running on loose snow, hard pack, black ice always running 2WD.



I have heard of poor performance with siped tires, I just have not seen it in the tires I have ran.



I will not run a winter without SIPED tires.



jjw

ND

 

[mroodzant]

When I bought my Toyo M-608Z 19. 5's at Les Schwab I asked about siping. I had intended to do the Alaska drive spending some of the trip on the back roads. Schwab recommended not siping the tires if you intend to spend a fair amount of time on gravel roads. I did not sipe the tires based on this advise. That was 22,000 miles ago in February 2004. The tread is at 50% or less now. I did not make the Alaska trip yet. These are a commercial tire that advertise high mileage. I am not sure if I'm impressed with the wear on these tires or not. What do you guys think? I tow a 4500# travel trailer maybe 500 to 1000 miles a year. I almost never dry steer. I have had siped BFG AT's on my 97 and they were great tires lasting 40,000

 

[McCRam]

I had my tires siped once, never again. As Matt stated above, rocks got into the grooves and tore chunks out of the tread blocks. They were bfg all terrains, and they lasted a tad over 12000 miles. My next set of bfg's, not siped, lasted over 50000.

 

[keimmmo]

JJW,



I got 105k out of my original Michelins on the 01. 5. I do run mostly highway miles, but that set of tires ran thousands of miles on dirt and gravel roads and thousands more towing 10k of travel trailer through the mountains!!! Even 50k-60k out of the better tires does not impress me a bit!



If you were getting feathered wear while towing, you WERE increasing the wear on the tires by having them siped! I DO agree to not cut them too deep the first time and cut them again as the tires wear. Since I have my own groving tool, I sometimes cut my tires as many as 3-4 times through their tread life.



You can largely avoid the problem of tread chunking by not cutting the sipes very deep and recutting them as the tire wears.



For what it is worth, I bought my groving tool on E-Bay a couple of years ago. It cost about $50-$60 new and with an extra set of cutters.



Steve Keim

 

[AMink]

Does your grooving tool make the micro cuts like at Les Schwaub? You can barely see the cuts in those tires. They're even smaller than the ones in Blizzaks and other winter tires.

 

[Cattletrkr]

I love my siped Mich XDE-MS. 50K+ with them on and OVER 50% tread left.



Shouldn't siping allow the tire to flex?? If the tire's flexing, it's not scrubbing/sliding as much. Should last longer. I've heard a lot of arguements both ways. It's like asking "what chip do I want" or "which oil is better". Too many variables to say which is handsdown the better way to go.

 

[keimmmo]

Actually, a tire that flexes too much CAUSES increased wear. You want the tread to lay out flat on the road without squirm or flex. When the tread blocks are weakened with sipes, they will allow the tread to flex... especially during heavy accelleration, heavy braking, or towing... resulting in faster wear.



To put in sipes with my groving tool you turn the "U" shaped cutter upside down and use one or both of the "ears" to cut the rubber. I have a 1/8 wide cutter that I really like better than sipes.



Steve Keim

 

[JJW_ND]

Just my experience

Hey Steve, I would not ever think of running the loads or roads I ran the winter of 96/97 without siped tires. The feathering was from 700 mile runs pulling enough trailer(s) that I could only run in 4th at 2800 RPMS even though I was putting 250 - 275hp to the wheels (three hundered HP was alot to the wheels 10 years ago... image that).



My admiration for Toyo M55's is as compared to three other brand tires operating exactly the same. I got TWICE the miles out of the Toyos and the good mileage repeated with the second set of M55s. I can't emphaize enough that I was towing heavy and hard back then and I required serious winter tires to deal with 60 feet of trailers on ice roads. Sipe M55's did it for me.



jjw

ND

 

[keimmmo]

It sounds to me like sacrificing a little tire life for the safety is a good trade for you. I AM NOT saying not to sipe tires!!! I am just saying that doing so WILL reduce the tread life. I cut extra tread lines in MY tires to improve the traction on wet and muddy roads. It makes a HUGE difference in the traction! But, I KNOW it shortens the tread life. Personally, I do not cut sipes... I cut groves. Sipes are great for snow/ice, which I NEVER see. I see plenty of mud, wet roads, and sandy conditions.



Steve Keim

 

[CRuth]

Had the bfg mud terrains siped on my jeep. Granted huge difference in weight but (and having never run anything other than bfg mts on the jeep) I didnt notice any difference in wear. I had some slight chunkage but then again at that time the jeep was doing some seriously hard core off road trails. If the michelins on my truck weren't already siped I wouldn't hesitate to do it.

 

[keimmmo]

In preparation for a Christmas trip down to southern Mexico on the border of Guatamala, I just did a rotation and balance on the Goodyears on the 01. 5 today. I also recut the grooves I have added. (I do ALL my own work!) I measured the grooves today. I am cutting 1/8 wide by 3/16 deep. I recut them every rotation to keep the depth consistent. I find that that depth doesn't cause much flex... and therefore increased wear in the tread. The tires had VERY MINIMAL "saw tooth" wear even after towing 10k worth of trailer over the mountains a few days ago! But, the traction difference on wet roads and sandy mud is amazing!



I find most new tires are fine on wet roads. But, most of the factory sipes are only about half the depth of the tread. Also, many tires have "tread stabilizer" bars between the tread blocks that are not nearly as deep as the rest of the tread. As the tires wear, the sipes wear off and you eventually hit the "tread stabilizers". At that point, the tire doesn't do well at all on wet roads. While sipes help some new tires, grooves or at least sipes REALLY HELP a worn tire to bite better and be safer!!!



I have been thinking about the comments on this thread, and I have to suspect that many of the ones who have had bad experiences with dealer cut sipes are because the sipes were cut too deep and weakened the tread... causing chunking and tread flex.



Just my thoughts and some personal experience.



Steve Keim

 

[mroodzant]

OK, New update from a different Les Schwab rep. I stopped by Schwab today to get my Toyo M608z 245/75 19. 5 tires siped and the manager advised me not to sipe them because my truck was too heavy and I would wear the tires out faster than normal. My truck weighs 8700 LBS curb weight and I have found a few heavy toys and tools to haul around. So now I guess I will not do it. Schwab did agree that I would get significantly better winter traction. You guys can be the judge. In western Washington winter usually equals 40 degrees and rain.

 

[hammersley]

Yes they will wear out faster!

I had that experience with M55's and my Les Schwab guy (regional manager) who I've known for 30 years also told me after my experience that siping wasn't a good idea for tire life..... now siping would add traction - but all teh extra torque ig bombed will cause excessive wear!