Smarty Jr. timing rattle

[jrgough]

I have a Smarty jr with the 5. 12 version, does timing rattle hurt the motor? I hate to hear the injectors ratteling I'm on stock timing and thats the least ive heard the rattle just wondering about the longevity of more timing = more rattle. what would the long range results be?

 

[p-Bar]

Hard to believe you are having rattle they can't be advancing the timing that much. I am running the Roktech and the Smarty and mine doesn't rattle. I would like to see a variable advance as it seems the tolerances are sloppy on these engines. Will check my version

 

[AH64ID]

Shouldn't hurt a thing, just the nature of the common rail. If your running stock timing your not getting much from the Jr as the timing is the main reason to run one.

Try reducing the tq management. TQ3 and TQ4 really reduces my rattle.

 

[Dieselduck]

Shouldn't hurt a thing, just the nature of the common rail. If your running stock timing your not getting much from the Jr as the timing is the main reason to run one.



Try reducing the tq management. TQ3 and TQ4 really reduces my rattle.

Timing rattle "Shouldn't hurt a thing"???



Tell that to the guy's whose motors are now in pieces.



You shouldn't have any timing rattle on the stock timing level.

Check the valve lash, Ive been told . 008/. 018 helps quiet things down and picks up a few HP.



A few details on the truck might help! year,mileage,mods,ext???

 

[AH64ID]

HPCR's have a bit of rattle stock, at least every one I have been in.

Timing rattle is a low boost, low load noise, and that's not where motors melt and break.

 

[cerberusiam]

Timing rattle "Shouldn't hurt a thing"???



Tell that to the guy's whose motors are now in pieces.

If that were the case every 24V VP engine woul have died a long time ago. Even on advanced timing these CR's can't compare. A 12V at 21 degrees is really noisy and they live fine.



Diesels will rattle on ignition, its a fact. At an idle or just off idle the cylinder pressures are not high to worry about. Its when the rattle is gone and the timing advanced too much that the problems appear.



The lack of rattle and in a CR is a combination of emissions and NVH initiatives. Doesn't mean its bad for them until you push too much fuel in the advanced stage, but, thats a different discussion.



Smarty alone is not going to advance the timing far enough to damage an engine. Stacking and not understanding the fueling rates yields much different results though.

 

[rscurtis]

I have the Rokktech in my signature truck, and when cold, the fuel knock is noticeable for a mile or so until the ECM retards the timing.



When I had my '95, I had the timing reset by one of the TDR advertisers who shall remain nameless. When I got the truck back, it smoked at idle and the exhaust would burn your eyes. It also did not have the mid range torque it did before. I bought a timing kit and re-timed it myself (which I should have done in the first place), and the timing was set at 21 degrees. It was also noisier when cold. I reset it to 14-1/2 degrees, and all was well. As Cerberusiam said, no harm was done, except the oil got black very quickly.

 

[Dieselduck]

If that were the case every 24V VP engine woul have died a long time ago. Even on advanced timing these CR's can't compare. A 12V at 21 degrees is really noisy and they live fine.



Diesels will rattle on ignition, its a fact. At an idle or just off idle the cylinder pressures are not high to worry about. Its when the rattle is gone and the timing advanced too much that the problems appear.



The lack of rattle and in a CR is a combination of emissions and NVH initiatives. Doesn't mean its bad for them until you push too much fuel in the advanced stage, but, thats a different discussion.



Smarty alone is not going to advance the timing far enough to damage an engine. Stacking and not understanding the fueling rates yields much different results though.

Apparently I missed the boat??? I thought the guy was asking about a CR. You are posting about a 12V, 24V VP, and CR, a "History lesson" if you will.

Another point I apparently missed is that this rattle is only on idle.

You must also be a mind reader, because I read none of this in his original post.



That is why I asked for details on the truck.

Rattle on a stock timing tune, should be very light.

I am running a AirDog, so my 06 is extremely quiet, but even without it shouldn't be that noticeable.



That's my 2 cents

 

[AH64ID]

What does an AD have to do with timing rattle? This will have zero effect on rail pressure in the demand modes where timing rattle occurs on a CR.

The point in older enigne timing was they all rattle, and they all live.

 

[cerberusiam]

Apparently I missed the boat??? I thought the guy was asking about a CR. You are posting about a 12V, 24V VP, and CR, a "History lesson" if you will.

Thats because its a diesel and your going to get "timing" rattle no matter what flavor. The point is the rattle is not an engine killing thing, as you suggested. I was pointing out as others did that the rattle is not a bad thing and part of the design. There are certain things about these engines, 12-24-CR, that are common ya know.

Another point I apparently missed is that this rattle is only on idle.

You must also be a mind reader, because I read none of this in his original post.

Well, since the rattle is really only noticeable at idle and off idle it kinda follows. As injection advances the rattle dissipates or gets swallowed up in the engine noise. Kinda hard to talk about it when you can't hear it.

but even without it shouldn't be that noticeable.

You also missed where he said the stock settings is the quitest of all and was wondering if the other settings were an issue with the noise. CR's are quiet at stock settings because of the retarded injection timing. Advance a little bit and it will get noisier because its a diesel, thats all we are saying.

 

[Dieselduck]

What does an AD have to do with timing rattle? This will have zero effect on rail pressure in the demand modes where timing rattle occurs on a CR.



The point in older enigne timing was they all rattle, and they all live.

The AirDog made a noticeable difference in injector noise. If you had one, or was around a truck with one, maybe you would know this.

Thats because its a diesel and your going to get "timing" rattle no matter what flavor. The point is the rattle is not an engine killing thing, as you suggested. I was pointing out as others did that the rattle is not a bad thing and part of the design. There are certain things about these engines, 12-24-CR, that are common ya know.









Well, since the rattle is really only noticeable at idle and off idle it kinda follows. As injection advances the rattle dissipates or gets swallowed up in the engine noise. Kinda hard to talk about it when you can't hear it.







You also missed where he said the stock settings is the quitest of all and was wondering if the other settings were an issue with the noise. CR's are quiet at stock settings because of the retarded injection timing. Advance a little bit and it will get noisier because its a diesel, thats all we are saying.

You know a guy asked a question, and I replied to try to HELP him with my thoughts and ideas. I am then attacked by you INTERNET EXPERTS, because my opinion differs from yours. Then I get some kind of history lesson, like I was born yesterday.



My truck has more done to it than both you EXPERTS trucks combined, but apparently I have nothing of importance to say or add.



This is exactly why I rarely post.



I LOSE, YOU EXPERTS WIN, HAPPY NOW.



I'm DONE, going back to seclusion.

 

[SierraRam]

I have run a AD and it has no effect on timing rattle and I am no internet expert.



If the poster could let us know if this rattle is constant at idle or is more cyclical, meaning noisey then quite then noisey again I would suspect the his FCA is starting to get sticky wich will cause big swings in rail pressure and cyclical timing rattle.

 

[cerberusiam]

Oh my! I guess discussion, differing opinions, and examples are not allowed.



Dieselduck, sure sorry you feel picked on so early in the year. It is a discussion forum after all and not everybody subscribes to the same theory, thats why we share ideas.

 

[AH64ID]

The AirDog made a noticeable difference in injector noise. If you had one, or was around a truck with one, maybe you would know this.

There is a distinct reason I don't have one, the overall filtration is WORSE than stock and almost all of the benefits appear to be hype by 99% of reports. The CP3 regulates pressure and if it were off and the AD fuel supply fixed that then you would have been getting a CEL for low rail pressure. The only real benefit is the increased flow if your above 450ish hp.

I have been around a few trucks with em. .

Its a quality pump and I am considering a Raptor when the time comes.

 

[TCDiesel]

Rattle is common, but should be controllable,Combustion Knock is gonna be $$$$,I think Dieselduck, is talking more about CK then rattle. . I have Stated this MANY TIMES "CR does Not conform to Logic it Conforms to experience". Dieselduck AD & Cerb Are just like us, and most of the time there post are helpful. Its so easy to put more into keystrokes then what really being Stated...

 

[cerberusiam]

almost all of the benefits appear to be hype by 99% of reports.

Remind me I am an INTERNET EXPERT the next time we disagree on that subject, and others.

Combustion Knock is gonna be $$$$

Now THAT is something that is almost never discussed in conjunction with a diesel engine. Rightly so as the composition of diesel and the direct injection generally won't support it.



However, as Todd pointed out, the CR doesn't always follow logic. I suspect in certain cases some of what is identified as timing rattle may very well be a form of pre-ignition.



Baby these engines too much with the emissions crap built in, add in the dynamic fueling and timing, plus some rather rudimentary sensory inputs to the ECU, and they definitely make some noises that are not the normal ignition rattle.



Proving it gets to be problematic though, as its not a "mainstream" idea.

and most of the time there post are helpful. Its so easy to put more into keystrokes then what really being Stated...

Most of the time???





:-laf:-laf

 

[SierraRam]

Rattle is common, but should be controllable,Combustion Knock is gonna be $$$$,I think Dieselduck, is talking more about CK then rattle. . I have Stated this MANY TIMES "CR does Not conform to Logic it Conforms to experience". Dieselduck AD & Cerb Are just like us, and most of the time there post are helpful. Its so easy to put more into keystrokes then what really being Stated...

Spoken like a very wise man.

 

[jrgough]

What i probably did not clarify was that the rattle was for the injectors when smartyJr is loaded. I hear more injector rattle due to the timing increase from Smarty Jr. than stock, would this over a long period kill motor/injectors. Basically I hear more rattle when running Jr than stock, will this be detramental in the long run?



I didn't mean to get any harsh comments from anyone. I simply do not want to shorten the life of my investment.



thanks for the info

 

[AH64ID]

That noise is normal combustion noise from the advanced timing of the Jr. The very retarded timing in the stock profile is for emissions and noise, advance it a little and it sounds like a diesel

 

[jrgough]

So the rattle of injectors that i hear from the Jr is nothing to worry about?



I did not want to mess up my injectors.