some 4bt swap questions

[blkdragon]

i plan on swapping a 4BT and nv4500 into my Ford Ranger 4x4 sometime within the near future and have a few questions:

1. what do i do about the slave cylinder?

2. what all do i need from a dodge cummins w/nv4500(bellhousing,flywheel,etc)?

3. do these motors require alot of electrical work to get to run?

4. would a regular clutch for a 5. 9 work?

5. how much does it cost to rebuild one of these?

6. is there a transfer case thats electric that will bolt up to a nv4500?



thats all i can think of right now. if i think of more ill post. thanks

 

[blkdragon]

do i need a nv4500 out of a diesel 4x4 dodge to use?

 

[Forrest Nearing]

1. I would probably try a Dodge slave... if it didn't work, go with an aftermarket that's sized to match the Ford master... that, or try to adapt the Dodge master to the Ford pedal assembly. probably wouldn't be that difficult.



1. all of it



3. no... they actually don't require any if you put a manual cable on the fuel shutoff... just wiring to the starter



4. yes



5. depends on what you mean by "rebuild". I would hope you'd just need rings/bearings/gaskets. in that case, probably ~$500 even with some minor machine work.



6. not sure

 

[Forrest Nearing]

do i need a nv4500 out of a diesel 4x4 dodge to use?

that's what I would use... if you just look at the 4BT as a 6BT minus two cylinders, it makes a lot of sense to just use dodge parts behind it as they are readily available and you won't have to reinvent the wheel... as an added bonus, they hold up to the 6B pretty well... with a 4B in front of 'em, you won't have to worry about breakage



Forrest

 

[DKarvwnaris]

i plan on swapping a 4BT and nv4500 into my Ford Ranger 4x4 sometime within the near future and have a few questions:

1. what do i do about the slave cylinder?

2. what all do i need from a dodge cummins w/nv4500(bellhousing,flywheel,etc)?

3. do these motors require alot of electrical work to get to run?

4. would a regular clutch for a 5. 9 work?

5. how much does it cost to rebuild one of these?

6. is there a transfer case thats electric that will bolt up to a nv4500?



thats all i can think of right now. if i think of more ill post. thanks

1. Slave cylinder is no big deal, I have used the stock master cylinders in full size ford's to engage the dodge slave cylinders. You'll just need to have a line made up to connect them. Easy enough with ARP fittings and braided line.



2. With as light as a Ranger is, you are going way overkill this way, The clutch and flywheel will never wear out, you're likely to snap a driveshaft or rear end first. You'll need the dodge bellhousing adapter on the back fo the engine, the bellhousing, clutch, flywheel, starter and slave cylinder. Find a wrecked dodge and get everything behind the crankshaft including the driveshaft if possible.



3. You'll have an alternator to hook up, electric shut off solenoid, gauge sending units unless you go mechanical, and starter wiring, Don't forget a good ground cable to the frame and the battery.



4. THe clutch will work, but you're going to be hard pressed to get the room under the transmission tunnel to fit the large diameter bellhousing, a body lift is most likely in your future with the dodge setup.



5. You can get Recon engines from Cummins for about $4500 turnkey if I remember right. If you're looking for a used one, expect the typical rebuild at a qualified shop to be $3000. 00 with labor. That's worse case scenario from my experience. A cummins direct recon engine will have a core charge on all parts rebuildable, usually adding $2500. 00 or better to an outright purchase if you don't have a core engine to turn in.



6. Check with Advance adapters, you may find the transmission adapter you need to use your stock one. Do not turn the engine up, it will kill the transfer case in short order, most likely will in stock form alone.

Another solution may be a GM transfer case with electronic engagement, I have seen some SUV's with them, I haven't used this setup because we build for towing and use 3/4 or 1 ton parts out of dodges nearly exclusively. If you're worried about wiring, this will be your worst part of the job.



7. There alot of other ways to satisfy the testerone level of a Cummins than degrading the poor engine to run in a mini truck, 4wd or not :-laf How about a nice 5. 0 out of a mustang? Possibly an Isuzu diesel from their "pup" series pickups? They are excellent engines for their size and cost.



Ditto to the first reply, the dodge parts are the way to, if you have the firewall and tunnel clearance for them. If you are up to modifying the tunnel with higher and wider sheetmetal, you should be okay. Have you measured a 4bt verses a 4cylinder Ranger engine? If you have a v-6 in yours, it is even shorter in length, not to mention the 4b's height is twice that of either 4 or 6 cylinder ranger block. Radiator and Fan clearance problems should be planned for before any commitment of parts of tear down is made. You could always leave the hood off, I guess. The I-beam front end will be difficult to lower without substantial fabrication to the crossmember and frame.

Put some more post up if you get serious, I haven't bothered with a ranger yet, but would be interested to help out if you run into trouble.

 

[blkdragon]

i have took measurements. the height is the only thing that will be a problem,if any. i could do a 2 inch body lift if i need more room in the transmission tunnel. raidiator clearence is enough. although i will have to use an electric fan. with the suspension lift i dont have to worry about clearing the axel. i will make a new crossmember. im not going to use the stock transmission. there is a guy over on therangerstation.com that has put this motor/transmission combo into an explorer. this explorer looked to have no suspension or body lift so im hoping there is enough clearence. i havnt talked to the guy yet. hes rerely online. i will probably try to find a bread truck and use the motor out of that. or just take the motor out of that and use it as a core and get one from www.rebuiltdieselengines.com will use a manual transfer case if there is none that bolt up. i just figured it would be easier to splice a few wires than to cut bigger hole in the flore. thanks

 

[DKarvwnaris]

i will probably try to find a bread truck and use the motor out of that. or just take the motor out of that and use it as a core and get one from www.rebuiltdieselengines.com

I didn't see anything on that site listing them as cummins authorized dealers.

If you're going to spend that kind of money for a rebuilt cummins, I would just get one from Cummins themselves. The price is not that different and at least Cummins will cover it for repairs at any authorized dealer or shop. The first time you have to take it into the shop for repairs, you'll see the benefit of a Cummins recon. I take all my cummins or detroit engine repairs only to engine authorized dealers. This gives me a warranty on not only the parts, but the related labor to remedy any problems with the previous repair. I also make coast to coast trips several times a year with my trucks.

 

[blkdragon]

ok. ill take youre advice if i decide to buy a new recon engine. i do have a cummins authorized dealer close buy. ill check them out. by "turnkey" do you mean its a drop in complete with turbo,filters,pump,etc?if i have a core engine to give cummins when i purchase my recon engine they will give me somewhere in the 2000-2500 range for it,so basically i get the engine for $2000-3000?

 

[DKarvwnaris]

if i have a core engine to give cummins when i purchase my recon engine they will give me somewhere in the 2000-2500 range for it,so basically i get the engine for $2000-3000?

Ah, NO.

Cores are never figured in on the cost. A recon and crated 4bt is about $4500 to $6000 depending on application. The core I mentioned is in ADDITION to this, they don't want to give up heads, blocks, turbo's, pumps etc. without knowing they will get them back or be paid to produse new ones for the next recon.

One other thing I forgot to mention, on occasion when Cummins is short of recon engines, they will build them with brand new parts such as heads, or sometimes just a new engine for recon sale. I was shocked when we got one in from Cummins, they said it wasn't a mistake, just short on production of Recon's



You can order short blocks, long blocks or turn keys. The turn keys are ready to go, with all parts, you may need to put a fuel pump on, but the entire engine is assembled, turbo is part of the package. If any of your core parts are damage,(such as a cracked head, or grenaded turbo), you will not get the core charges back on them once they inspect the returned engine.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

just buy a good running used engine for $1500 and run that.

 

[blkdragon]

just buy a good running used engine for $1500 and run that.

sounds like a much easier route. if i find a good running one ill do that. just clean everything up. seems like everyone i see is over $2000. ill keep looking.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

well, $2k is still a lot better than $4500-6000! LOL!

 

[blkdragon]

Ill drink to that!!

 

[JLEONARD]

My son put a 6bt into an S-10. He used the slave cyl and Getrag from the donor 89. Minor (ok not so minor) sheet metal removal to get the transmission in.

The wiring was cake really. Just power to the starter and fuel solenoid... oh yes, and the alternator. I think he or a friend spent some quality time with the S-10 schematic and figured it out the alternator.

The stock clutch with 225 K miles was fine until we put in the POD injectors and turned up the pump up a wee bit.

Now it has a Ceneterforce dual friction.

Fan was removed and twin electric fans from the front blow thru a custom made radiator.

Front suspension is still original 2wd S-10, although he plans on adding airbags. Rear was lowered to meet the front... it has a "semi low-rider" look.

Hope this helps out.

Sounds like a good project... good luck.

Jay

 

[DKarvwnaris]

My son put a 6bt into an S-10. Rear was lowered to meet the front... it has a "semi low-rider" look.

Hope this helps out.

Sounds like a good project... good luck.

Jay

Is he trying to compete with Gale Banks dakota?!!!

Do you have any links to pics of it? I would hope so, that's quite an accomplishment to achieve with an S-10. Has he been able to get the front end within alignment specs and get reasonable life out of the steering components? That seems a lot of weight for an S-10 factory suspension.

 

[JLEONARD]

get the front end within alignment specs and get reasonable life out of the steering components

:-laf :-laf

I'll attempt to answer. .

He owns/runs an auto repair shop and alignment is one of his specialties. Keeping that in mind. .

I don't know if it's been on the rack. It drives ok and as long as he avoids speed bumps, it's ok. That's whay it needs airbags as a min. It does not have enough miles to know about component life. And it won't for a while as it's out of commish for the winter. (no heater... where would he put one?)

There are a few early pics in my reader's rig album. All the sheet metal is now cleaned up pretty good, and there is a nice pair of buckets inside to replace the plastic crate you'll see in the pics :-laf

You'll find the thread about it several threads down and you can read what's in store for it over the winter.

Jay

 

[DKarvwnaris]

My goodness, thats alot of "alteration". I have repowered 5. 9's into "C" model chevy's but not "S" models, now I know I will not try it. I don't think any my projects were that "tight" of a fit.

Your pics show that a 4bt should be an easy fit though, I see four valve covers in clear view ahead of the fire wall. I haven't read the other thread before, now it is alot more clear with the pics in your gallery.

I used to put GM smallblocks into the s-10 platforms, those vehicles were really tough on the steering parts and suspension, we usually ended switching th majoriy of the s-10 components out for full size truck parts. Spindles especially. This required alot of fab work though, if I didn't do alignments myself, I would not have done it. I converted the trucks front ends over a weekends on the alignment rack so we knew it would drive straight before making it permanent.

 

[blkdragon]

yeh i saw that thread on the s-10. simply amazing. i dont think this swap will be too hard. i think the hard part will be transmission/transfer case hookup to the driveshafts and lining everything up. im glad i found this board. there is alot of knowlegable people on here who i will probably have to depend on for help. which do you think would be easier to use a Getrag or NV4500?probably should go the stronger way and use nv4500 to start with eh?

 

[DKarvwnaris]

. which do you think would be easier to use a Getrag or NV4500?probably should go the stronger way and use nv4500 to start with eh?

THere is no difference in "ease" of use on either one. The getrag will cost you in the long run, the NV-4500 will cost you up front. Depends on your budget to get things together. Getrags are easily replaced with NV-4500's if you are using a dodge transfer case, just an input adapter to mate the transmission and transfer case. The bellhousings are completely different though so you will be looking at a new starter, bellhousing adapter, clutch arm etc. if you start with a getrag and put in a NV-4500 later. Getrags are not bad transmissions under the right application, Dodge just should not have put it in a diesel powered pickup that was guaranteed to be towing heavy loads.

Advice is the easy part, patience is what you have provide yourself, that's the hard part.

 

[JLEONARD]

Your pics show that a 4bt should be an easy fit though, I see four valve covers in clear view ahead of the fire wall

Yes... that would fit quite nicely. Would have been my choice, for the reason you discussed... . drivability and front end life.

But then again... . now he has something really different.