Some new info on oil additives

[swalls]

I think most people on this forum are well aware of the "snakeoil" marketers out there. The fact is that premium diesel engine oils are already well-formulated without the need for any additional types of additives. For those of you who haven't visited "Bob is the Oil Guy" very informative website lately, here is a link. Be sure to scroll down the home page and click on "The Story with Additives"

It might keep a few of the unwary from falling for the fancy auto part store display (the little plastic box with the gears in it, ya know) and putting some of this crap in their CTD.



Bob is the Oil Guy

 

[WDaniels]

Excellent demonstration and information.

WD

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Keep in mind that MANY of the "nasty" or forbidden stuff the "snakeoil swamis" are bleating about, are some of the very SAME stuff used in additive packages in the oil - so is MORE of a "good thing" suddenly a BAD thing? Maybe it depends on the use of the engine, and what the owner is most interested in protecting against?



*I* am just as DIStrustful of anti-snakeoil prophets and evangelists as I am the snakeoil itself... SOME of it CAN be useful in specific cases or situations - they're not all bad...

 

[DocStressor]

Here's the difference, Gary. Many of the additives in an engine oil formulation interact with each other. For example, extreme pressure additives and friction modifiers compete with each other for binding sites on metal surfaces. The ester components in synthetic lubes also change the surface chemistry. So balance in an oil formulation, as in life, is the key. Companies like Chevron, Mobil and the additive manufacturer Lubrizol spend tons of money on emperical formulations to get the additive balance just right. Adding extra moly (a favorite of the guys at the bobistheoilguy site) to an oil already containing a proprietary additive package makes very little sense. Most aftermarket additive products do not contain snake oil. As you say, they contain the same things that are found in some finished oil formulations. But telling people that lubrication properties will be improved by dumping the stuff into any oil is selling snake oil IMO.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

LEMMEE put it to ya THIS way:



Would the formulation for an oil designed to be MOST appropiate in an ARTIC climate be likely to be the same as one designed to be most protective in a desert climate? I'm not simply talking viscosity, but those OTHER additives that specifically are contained for specific temperature scenarios...



I'm going to assume your response is NO, ONE additive package will NOT give BEST protection in ALL situations - and IF that is true, is there the remote possibility that addition of specific additional additives to more precisely fit a specific situation, might also be not only possible, but recommended, if maximum protection is the goal?



For my money, the question is not WHETHER some additional additives might be a good thing in specific cases, only which ones, and in what quantity...

 

[WDaniels]

Gary-KJ6Q

But that is exactly how the oil companies make their oils. (Minus the viscousity differences)What additives that are good in the Arctic are also used in the desert. It would be nice if they made an oil exclusively for the -50 to -70's that we do get here. And on that same token, the same for the desert. But if they did that some idiot of which there is no shortage of, would put the wrong oil in his/her engine thinking that it'll do, and burn it up then try to sue the oil companies. So they, in protection of themselfs use almost exactly the same additives in all their oils. That is one of the reasons that they have the standards that they do have.

WD

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"What additives that are good in the Arctic are also used in the desert. It would be nice if they made an oil exclusively for the -50 to -70's that we do get here. And on that same token, the same for the desert. "





But you see, THAT is EXACTLY my point! They don't/can't make a special oil for every climate or situation, so they must COMPROMISE, and make ONE SINGLE oil that best (in their opinion) fits the MOST situations! MY point is, that if *I* have a "special" need or goal in an oil to fit my requirements, some additional additive might get me just what I want or need to accomplish my purpose!

 

[swalls]

no prob there, Gary!

"MY point is, that if *I* have a "special" need or goal in an oil to fit my requirements, some additional additive might get me just what I want or need to accomplish my purpose"



I agree with you in principle, Gary. If you have the know-how to blend in the right additive in the right amounts, with no damage to the existing package, that's Maintenance with a capital M! For instance, if your favorite motor oil is a little low on molybdenum, why not pour a few CC's to bring it up to spec with, say for isntance, Schaeffer oil or Rimula T. BUT, as the guy said in the above post, 1st thing you better know is how much to add, and what could go wrong if you overdo it, and does it justify the cost. Personally I don't worry about that stuff; I see literally hundreds of oil analysis reports each year at work, plus one from my own rig on each oil change, and I know the oil I'm using is doing a fine job in all of these diesel engines. (Case-IH #1 engine oil, 15W40. )



I linked Bob the Oil Guy's page, because I suppose a lot of you guys have seen the little L***s display at the auto parts store counters; which is a couple of sets of gears in a clear plastic box, with a little crank handle sticking out so you can rotate the gears and watch the oil with the additive cling to the gears. Makes sense you would want the oil in your engine to cling to the gears better--so you buy some of this stuff and put in your engine. Bob Oil Guy's demo showed the very undesirable hidden side effect of that stuff.



A premium quality diesel oil is going to need few-- if any-- additional additives.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I've always worked my trucks pretty hard while towing - I insist on keeping up with traffic in the hills and not being a road-block with our RV - and cold climate operation has never been an issue - but HOT weather HAS...



It's been my practice in past vehicles to use STP, partly for better oil film strength, as well as what I personally consider better wear protection under higher heat conditions often seen in towing situations. I can't offer any lab type proof that would likely convince any who ridicule "snakeoils", but HAVE had about a half dozen VERY favorable experiences while using STP that have convinced my that my theory concerning it's use was justified. But I probably would NOT use it in a cold, non-towing scenario, or in a new engine - and haven't added it to the new truck's engine.



Oil analysis with the old truck, used extensively in RV towing, and with substantial power enhancing mods, were always outstanding. It will be interesting to see how the new truck, under similar operating conditions, but without the STP, checks out in oil analysis - it's a much cleaner burning engine, and that alone should give it some sort of edge. It also has a MUCH improved cooling system than the '91 - and that should help as well.



Time will tell - but I still maintain that SOME tailoring of lubrication to fit specific situations and climates CAN be beneficial - rather than simply relying upon the oil refiners to provide "all we REALLY need"...



Few of us accept that our trucks are "best" just as they left the plant - or even that fuel formulations can't be "helped" by the use of selected additives for better protection - why assume the oils we use are any more "perfect" or complete for use in all applications, or can't be improved upon?

 

[DocStressor]

Well Gary, at least you used one of the more harmless snake oils out there. STP is primarily just a viscosity improver. It contains one of the 3 types of VI improvers already used in formulating multi-vis oil grades. So putting STP into a 15W-40 oil makes it something like a 20W-50 weight. No harm done (except to your wallet) and there may be some small advantage to using a higher vis oil under the driving conditions you describe. The main purpose of an oil is to keep metal parts from coming into contact. Under high temp/load conditions, viscosity is the property that does this job. But most diesel engines are designed to use an oil that starts out as a 40 weight and shears down to a 30W during extended use. STP would extend the time it takes for the oil to shear down below specs. But so would changing the oil before that point is reached. Actually, I can't remember ever seeing a used oil analysis result from of Dodge Ram where a 15W-40 oil has sheared to a 30 weight. The change intervals are too short.



And they do make different oils for specific climates (come on, you know this already). Just look at your owners manual. The only real differences are the base stocks and the amount of VI added. The rest of the addpack is pretty much the same for a typical brand of oil.



BTW, I think they no longer sell STP oil treatment. Wonder why?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"BTW, I think they no longer sell STP oil treatment. Wonder why?"



STRANGE - shelves of local stores are full of it - how many cases would you like me to send you?

 

[DocStressor]

Just wanted to let you have the last word on the topic.

 

[GLASMITHS]

Gary

On the STP. I talked to an old feller who is now retired, but had the responsibility for a fleet of OTRS. He told me that the only oil they found that would extend the life of an engine was STP. And the new owner was so aginst "snake oils" that they had to stop using it. Just a statement--



On the"other" Oil additive - Having just put 2 bottles in mine when I saw the demo and the cloudy stuff it made me wonder. It does not do that unless you really get it huffing (towing). The 7th I made a hard run with 5er (16. 5k) and 3 times that the oil was checked HOT it WAS milky looking. After cool-down it returned to normal looking. So it got dumped at 1800 miles. Never again!!

 

[illflem]

When I was kid racing slot cars (anyone remember those?) STP was the hot item. Put it on the tires for better traction. Never thought about putting it in an engine though. \

What about Bardohl, see it advertised on race vehicles but never heard of anyone using it.