Spoke w/ 5-Star Diesel Tech on WIF, Perf Mods & FASS

[Wiredawg]

All,



Thur I took my 4500 in for ECM flashes; it had AD and AH is current release. I had check engine light that self cleared a few weeks ago.



This is a great tech. I asked him if he had seen the heavy duty filtration TSB and he had, but had not researched it. I asked what the labor would be and they are calculating. Bet the labor will be most of a day.



Anyway, we discussed perf programs and he showed me a counter on the 5-Star programmer that counts each time the ecm is modified... should equal the qty of Dodge flashes updated. He said every major warranty claim is reviewed by the regional warranty rep, and they have a very detailed checklist that covers typical upgrade signs. the tech said someone pays on invalid warranty claims... the customer, the dealer (the mechanic) and he said he's not paying. He's a good guy and thaqe fact is Chrysler can no longer swallow perf upgrade related problems. No perf upgrades for me until out of warranty, if then.



I asked about WIF problems and cited the Wygate's problem posted on the TDR. He said three trucks had less extreme problems, but he is concerned ther is more to it than just the water. He showed me two fuel filter canisters that had some guck in the bottom... never seen it in any of mine. He said he wished Chrysler had a lab to analyze this as it could also be contributing to the problem.



Finally, I asked him if thought the stock in-tank pump could push through another add-on filteri, and although he said he was not sure, he doubted it seeing the Chrylser was upgrading it w/ the Chrysler extreme duty systesm. I asked about installing a FASS iin front of the stock filter to accomplish the extreme duty filtering and he said he would not interpret it as a perf upgrade, but as one that accomplishes documented need to perform extreme filtation. to me this is not a guarantee, but rather an honest conversation and that my truck won't automatically be denied warranty claim for trying in good faith to resolve a fuel filtration problem.



I decided I'm going to install a FASS (or Air Dog since they are on sale) to ease my mind. Much cheaper than $750 + labor for the Chrysler setup.



I can see there is room for interpretation on Chrysler warranty work from place to place, but it is clear the dealer has less influence on it and with Chrysler financial problems, warranty reps are being more strict on claims.



All said, I'm still ver satisfied w/ Chrysler as I have been a lifetime customer. I belive Dodge/Cummins is still the winning combination that can't be beat.



Wiredawg

 

[Tinman]

That's good news about common sense thinking/attitude on upgrading fuel filtering, etc. Can't blame them for not wanting to fix a performance related problems. They're just much more sophisticated in detecting it now. I have an acquaintance that has a PS6. 4 and he said it came with a video that explained they would know if you "chip" it. Customer shouldn't ask them fix performance related problems. That's fraud. But dealer shouldn't void a warranty for air fresheners either.

 

[TCDiesel]

I would wait on the upgrade, until these aftermarket companies come up with a system that will get both the free water and the emulsified water ( Water so thoroughly dispersed in petroleum that special treatment procedures are required to separate it). Hygroscopic media will get most of the emulsified water (to my knowledge NONE of the so call sponsors on this site and the Most Popular systems meet the requirements to solve this contaminate) Bio-Diesel is just around the corner for most of the US, So why install a system(s) that may present additional problems in the future, As for Performance they are awesome, as for filtration they will be inadequate.

 

[Wiredawg]

TWest,



For the purpose of discussion, don't you think in running a FASS w/ 7 or 10 micoron filter in front of the stock fuel filter w/ 5 micron filter could effectively remove a very high percentage of the water, even some of the emulsified? I already have a Griffin 455 fuel/water separator (comparable to Racor 777R) ready to install w/ 2 micron filter that claims to remove 98. 8% water from fuel. I bought this thinking the stock in-tank pump would be able to push through the stock 5 micron unit and this one. , but diesle tech doesn't htink so.



I'm not trying to jump off the cliff w/ this, but there is a need to protect the fuel system better than just the stock setup.

How close is anyone to developing a better water filtration system to deal with the emulsified fuel/water?



Thanks, wiredawg

 

[TCDiesel]

. The future Problem will be when Bio-Diesel becomes mandatory, it will carry 100 time more water then Clear #2, My Neighbor works for Flint Hills refiners, Flint Hills Produces about 85% of the Midwest Diesel,Bio-Diesel is required in many States,MN has 5% mandatory Now and will be 10% Jan 2011,Bio-Diesel is being sold on the market as in states that has NO law against it, Now last winter MN had -20+ for close to 2 weeks in Jan , I could not handle all the calls 50+ because of filter plugging from the Bio-Diesel, entire school districts were close because the Buses could not run safely in those temps,The chemicals use in Bio will bring on new problems, 1st the chemicals use to lower the Cloud point will cause havoc with certain filter media, 2nd the bio itself will create new filter issue, Bio itself will attract moisture. Heated filters will be necessary to effectively filter the fuel, or heated fuel prior to filtering. The future will bring the new generation of filters to handling this problem. Filtering will begin at the Pump. Vehicle system(s) will be equipped will bypass Filtering, It will be in depend of engine operation, some commercial equipment already have this. Bypass systems will immediately indicate a problem and then action can be taken, All you do now with single supply is pump the contaminate to components that have no choice but to accept it…. I have hammer this for years ,You cannot have a pressure loss without proper filtration, If you have 10psi pre filter and only drop 1 psi post filter, it ‘s not a good filter ,sure if you want 50 mic there will be no drop, Spin on a top notch filter and you will see a 5 psi drop. Quality filter(s) do not filter better as they collect debris, Quality filter(s) collect the same amount and size until they impact the volume to the point the vehicle cannot operate or Plug. If a company has a system that will solve this problem. . Get it in writing for the life of the vehicle this system will STOP fuel related problem for life,Heck if you believe the marketing??? Even Valveoline promises if you use their oil they will guarantee your gas engine for 300k, even if you start using their product at 75K. I call that type of marketing desperation , Quality Product need warranties for defects ONLY ,not selling tactics or a showy display.

 

[Wiredawg]

Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like this may be a while coming. Are you aware of anyone specifically working on this type of setup?



I have a thought to fill the gap until this new filtration is avail... install the setup I mentioned with 10 micron to 5 micron to 2 micron w/ each setup w/ water/fuel separator and a pump that has the capability to run fuel thru them. The idea is to capture majority of particles and water. Wouldn't this even capture some water in the emulsified fuel?



What else can we do to protect our investments? With major repair $14K to $17K we need to do something.



Any ideas are appreciated.



Wiredawg

 

[PToombs]

WD, Just some info I have learned on here in the couple weeks. Water is best removed by a suction filter. I never realised on the AirDog and FASS the 1st filter is under suction, and the 2nd is under pressure. Maybe you knew this already, but thought I'd pass it on.

 

[Wiredawg]

PToombs,



Thanks, I know this. It's a tough challenge ballancing efficient fuel pumping and fuel filtering. I spoke w/ my brother-in-law this evening. He is a master mechanic/electrician who installs/maintains big generators. He is installing three Racors 30m, 10m and then 5m trying to keep generators running. We discussed the pulling versus pushing fuel through filters. His are pulling. I told him I don't have a lot of choice other than I could put the Racor w/ 10m versus 2m, run the 7m in the FASS and then have 5m in the factory setup.



I really need to think this out... I'm trying to not get too uptight, but I also want to manage the risk. This ain't the 100%, but 80% is better than leaving it alone.



I welcome other opinions and suggestions.



Wiredawg

 

[TCDiesel]

We have the cold to deal with In MN ,Plus Bio-Diesel,We take this into consideration on every install,It's just unacceptable to get that call when someone is on Milacs lake and its -30 and the truck won't run,So we install the 03/04 Pump with our bracket and with a bypass port with 1 Aqua-Zorb 3/4 mic filter back to the tank,this returns 30GPH filtered back to the tank,So the fuel may be filter many times before use. . WD You may want to consider installing a system that is used for filtering only,The factory setup would say in place. . many owners have Auxiliary Tank filtering also.

 

[Austin Diesel]

Could this be called Diesel fuel polishing ?



The thoughts on this thread are very interesting, im still leaning to the racor setup with the 12 volt preheater recirculating setup but cant jepardize warranty failure of the in tank fuel pump "emulsifier" from to much back pressure.



The fuel tank could use a 12 volt heating pad or in tank element that plugs into the block heater circuit and or the truck elect systems but dont think it will work on a poly tank setup?



i do believe the majority of readers have been lucky as to the fuel they pump, some have not.



Polar or artic operation up north must be considered when we travel in northern climates



Volvo class 8 engines line trucks have some nice setups, biofuels are in and out in texas but -30 below extremes warrant some great proactive thought on how to preserve your engine investments and warrantys.



We are just a step away from being diesel techs in having to fix or mod our trucks to protect our hard earned investments in a intelligent manner.



Would like to compare some pricing and parts listings to figure AUX. fuel filter planning and cost budgeting



Austin Diesel

 

[Wiredawg]

Ordered an Air Dog

Well,



I labored enough and decided to purchase an Air Dog. I looked for prices on FASS, but couldn't beat $499, free shipping and lifetime warranty on the Air Dog. Not sure if anyone has installed one on C&C 185. 5 wheel base. I suspect I'll need to purchase more fuel line to get all the way to the rear of the truck.



I'll report on the install and and results later on.



Wiredawg

 

[Wygate]

I talked to my dealer and got the same story the OP got, as long as the system "meets Chryslers specs" you will be ok. Also if the aftermarket part was not a causative factor on the issue. That last part is a catch all; but he is the guy that will see my truck and did not have an issue with what I was doing from a warranty/ factory rep stand point.

Also FASS tec told me the same thing and to date they have not had any warranty issues from Chrysler.