Starting a Biodiesel Forum........

[Headshot zod]

Did you see the video. Somewhere there is a dealer video on the site that describes how to use the Fuelmeister. Josh Tickell is in it. That kit looks to be the best put together kit out there. The guy who designed looks like he really put some thought into it. If you do a tank or two a week. I bet you could pay that thing off in a year.

 

[CodeyHancock]

I did see the video. . The system looks to be the best one that I have seen on the internet. The systems that use hot water heaters scare me... Menthanol running through a system that is heated and could have a thermostat run away, makes me think it could end up being a bomb. .



If anyone in Sacramento is interested in forming a bio co-op in Sacramento area let me know. I think I could justify the cost of the equipment if others were involved in the use...

 

[Headshot zod]

I certainly agree. There is another way to make biodiesel though. That way is the "methyl ester" basically the homebrew. I have no idea what the pricebreak is but "ethyl ester" is the other way. Same process but more stringent.

 

[CodeyHancock]

What I have read is that the "methyl ester" method is more costly because it takes more to get the reaction than it does with methanol and lye. I attended a seminar that promoted the fuelmiester, and they didn't encourge the "methyl ester" method.



It might be tough for me to get a biodiesel co-op going. My friends with diesels, all stare at me when I mention biodiesel and think that I am crazy. One said "does it produce more hp?" And I said no, then he said he wasn't interested.



Don't understand what the problem is in California... hard to get the stuff...

 

[LightmanE300]

Methyl Esters are what is commonly referred to as Biodiesel - made from methanol and lye. Other people may make it via various methods at home, however commercially produced biodiesel, and what most people have typically gotten are SME - soy methyl esters, and commonly in europe RME rapeseed methyl esters.



I know a guy in south FL that uses methanol/lye, buys it in bulk, and has his total cost down to like 39 cents per gallon. . I think that's a pretty liveable price

 

[Jeremiah]

Care to share a phone number or a name and an address with us?

 

[LightmanE300]

Not sure if you're talking to me jeremiah. . ? If you need some bio info feel free to pm me. The guy I referred to doesn't sell any biodiesel, that was just his overall cost for his own homebrew.

 

[WBusa]

That's my truck!

... Well, not really, but here's a link to a report testing biodiesel in a '95 CTD Ram 2500. It coulda been my truck!



http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/fle/19981001_fle-016.pdf

 

[WBusa]

Well, dang it, you guys have got me started... I'm gettin' real inter'sted in biodiesel now. I suppose this comes from my long-held conviction that many of our civilization's most difficult problems today stem from our total dependence on dino fuel, combined with the general impracticality of most renewable and 'alternative' energy sources. But biodiesel -- if the last remaining kinks could be worked out of it -- really could work as a general substitute for petroleum fuels, couldn't it? Throw in zero net greenhouse gas emissions, favorable geo-politics, and more markets for my soybean-growing neighbors, and it just seems like a no-brainer, don't it?



But, being a curmudgeon from waaaay back, and a scientist by training, I do have some remaining issues, which I'd like to throw open for discussion here:



1. Has anyone ever conducted (and published in a peer-reviewed journal) a careful study of how much energy is consumed in the production of a gallon of biodiesel? Such an analysis would, I'd hope, include the energy consumed by the farmer growing the beans (tractor fuel, irrigation, etc), the energy input into producing the fertilizer and perhaps pesticides he uses (for the moment I'm discounting the practicality of 'organic' biodiesel, but who knows?), the energy consumed transporting the harvest to the mill, the energy used in milling, the energy used in transesterifying and refining the oil, and the energy used in transporting the oil first to wholesalers and then to retailers, and finally pumping it into the consumer's tank. It would not include the energy donated by sunlight in the growing process, since that's 'free'.



I ask because, of course, if the total energy budget for producing a gallon of biodiesel exceeds the energy content of the fuel produced, then biodiesel might still be a decent way of 'storing sunlight' in liquid form (which is, of course, a useful thing to be able to do), but it wouldn't truly be a replacement for dino fuels (which provide a lot more energy than their production consumes, generally speaking). So, does anybody know of any reputable studies on this topic? Please don't bother pointing me to any hippy-trippy web sites (of which there's no shortage in the biodiesel world, it seems); we're talkin' legitimate scientific/economic analyses only, please.



2. It seems to me that the biggest remaining problem w/ biodiesel is gelling: I would love to be burning B100 right now (even at its premium price), but... uh... its -9* outside right now, so no thanks. Given that most of our fair land enjoys freezing winters, this is a pretty general problem. Sure, blending w/ dino fuel makes our dino go further, but it sure does take away a lot from the attractiveness of bio as a general solution to our energy problems. As I understand it, conventional anti-gel agents for dino diesel don't help a whole lot here. So my second question is this: is there any much respectable research going on today into the development of anti-gel agents for B100? I've found a few published patents at www.uspto.gov, but most of them just demonstrate that some chemical depresses the gelling point or the cold filter plugging point, without demonstrating that you can actually burn the stuff in a conventional diesel engine without ruining it. Again, I'm aware of hippy-trippy stuff on the web by some guys claiming to have solved the problem, but I'm really more interested in reputable research. Is there any out there?



Thanks!

 

[theferalkid]

As far as a significant number of INDIVIDUALS obtaining raw WVO and doing their own conversion to diesel fuel on a regular and steady basis, I seriously doubt that will be found to be long-term practical, or even do-able for most.



I was, and still am interested in the process - but problem at the local level all revolves around required handling of discarded oil waste - in short, it is VERY difficult to obtain a reliable source for WVO!



Most eating establishments operating on a large scale - the chain outfits libe McDonalds, Burger King and such are very structured as to how incoming and outgoing materials are handled. And simply handing out a few gallons of WVO to any guy who wanders in and asks for it is NOT in their corporate manual!



Even the smaller independents are governed by state Hazardous Materials regulations - and are usually signed up to a state licensed waste removal firm who supplies them with storage containers, and schedules regular waste pickup.



The business owner isn't about to face fines for undocumented distribution of waste, and the normal waste hauler is NOT going to be very happy to see his scheduled pickup was compromised because the business owner allowed some stranger to siphon off 50 gallons or more of what the waste hauler was scheduled to haul away!



One local business I approached was also concerned about the type of container I could supply for them to deposit WVO into - and stated they could not keep the 50 gallon drum I would supply inside their establishment - nor would they assume the vandalism risk of keeping it outside where it might be tipped over - leaving them with LOTS of paperwork, cleanup costs and possible environmental fines.



Other states may be easier to deal with - but I have been directly involved in California state hazardous materials disposal - and it AIN'T easy here to find a ready and adequate steady source of WVO. NOR is it practical or cost-efficient to run all over the country trying to locate the few potential sources willing or able to sidestep state regulations relative to waste disposal. I wish it was easier, but around HERE, it is not!



Good luck to you guys in other states.

Notwithstanding your concerns, expertise, experience(?), there are many, many people successfully collecting WVO and at least company (Footprint Recycling, Arcata, CA) that i know of doing it exclusively and they make about 5,000 gallons of biodiesel a month, that equates to i think 7500 gallons of WVO collected a month. BTW, these people produce quality ASTM certified (tested regularly) biodiesel which runs 100% in my rigs (i also have a toyota diesel). The stuff available out here on the West Coast from World Energy Corp, virgin veg oil-based biodiesel, does not seem to be as quality, many users i have spoken with citing various problems including poor performance to gelling, not to mention cost.

 

[Headshot zod]

B100 is carbon neutral. So its a complete wash on the energy to grow/produce and use. At least from what I have read. And if you use a denox catalyst with a urea & ammonia injector, catalytic converter and a stainless steel exhaust it will cease to pollute. Steam and nitrogen is your new exhaust. Vs Ethanol which is a clean fuel but the process to create it pollutes. I think the stat was for every gallon of ethanol produced twelve gallons of crud is produced. I can't remember where I saw that stat so don't quote me on it. After reading about whats new for exhausts on diesels. You can look at the Prius and say what polluting car it is.



And as far as gelling, use B20 and antigel. Most people who are going to use biodiesel are going to use B20. All they will know is that they are using biodiesel and probably understand its mostly petroleum. The sharp call is get a second tank that is coolant heated. Start your vehicle on B20 and when it warms up switch over to B100. You might want to add a heated fuel line.



The thing to remember is that B100 is "natural" so its going to freeze solid if given the chance. I have an email here somewhere from one of the antigel companies. It basically said there isn't a product on the planet that is going to prevent B100 from not gelling.

 

[WBusa]

Thanks, headshot. With respect, I don't think that the fact that B100 is 'carbon neutral' has anything to do with the energy balance involved in producing it. It is 'carbon neutral' because the carbon (mostly in the form of CO2) released into the atmosphere when you burn it precisely equals the amount of carbon (all as CO2) that the soybeans sucked out of the atmosphere when they were growing... hence, burning B100 doesn't generate any net greenhouse gas CO2, which is a good thing. This is what people are talking about when they say B100 is carbon-neutral, or closes the carbon loop, or whatever... it is based on the first step in the process... bean plants photosynthesizing... and the last step... burning the fuel. All the intermediate steps... tilling, harvesting, milling, transportation, etc... aren't included, and for good reason: because there are a million different ways to power all those intermediate steps, and each way will have a different effect on the world's carbon budget. Say, for instance, that I power all the intermediate steps via nuclear energy... OK, so then those intermediate steps don't release any additional carbon. On the other hand, if I power all those intermediate steps by burning oil, then those intermediate steps release A LOT of additional carbon into the atmosphere. Additionally, all those intermediate steps can vary greatly in energetic efficiency, in different producers' hands. Here's a 'thought experiment' to illustrate: say I make a thousand gallons of B100 in a factory across town from you, then pump it through a pipe straight to your house. Very efficient, only a little energy consumed in transporting the product. This is good. Or maybe I'm dumb and put it in quart Mason jars, and use a fleet of two-stroke go-carts to deliver it all to your house. Very inefficient, much additional energy is consumed and much additional carbon is released (the only way I can stay in business like this is if I receive gov'mint subsidies, or if you'll pay me $1000/qt). My point being that for the first and last steps in the 'biodiesel cycle' (beans photosynthesizing, and fuel burning) we can express precisely how much carbon is released/consumed, and also how much energy is released/consumed... but for all other steps in between there are too many factors to juggle, so we tend to ignore them, and thus 'carbon neutrality' tells us nothing about the fuel cycle as a whole. Alas, its the whole cycle that determines whether an alternative fuel makes sense or not. Its not impossible to analyze the full cycle, its just a lot of hard work, so it doesn't get done very often. Such an analysis has been performed for ethanol from corn as a motor fuel, and the news there is verrrrry bad: to make and deliver a gallon of fuel corn ethanol via standard industrial processes, you consume much more petroleum than the equivalent of one gallon of gasoline -- which is why gasohol makes no sense to anyone except corn-belt politicians and their corn-farmer constituents.



OK, that was pretty long-winded, so just in case anyone lost track... I am not dissing biodiesel, I'm just asking a question. Please don't flame me.



As regards your suggestion to use B20 + antigel, yep, I'm with you there. But for purposes of the present discussion I'm not asking these questions as an individual, but rather as a 'policy wonk'... I'm trying to understand whether B100 can make sense for the whole world as an alternate fuel, to get us off of dino fuel. B20 reduces our oil dependence by only 20% (actually a lot less, since it reduces only our diesel consumption by 20%). If biodiesel is ever to reduce our (i. e. , civilization's) oil dependence to near-zero, then we're (i. e. , civilization) going to have to find a way to keep it liquid at freezing temperatures, since most of this planet gets pretty durn cold in the winter. So, again, as a policy wonk I'm curious about all this, which is why I asked if anybody knows whether there's good work going on.



OK, OK, I'll shut up soon, but just one more thing. You write: "The thing to remember is that B100 is "natural" so its going to freeze solid if given the chance. I have an email here somewhere from one of the antigel companies. It basically said there isn't a product on the planet that is going to prevent B100 from not gelling. " Sounds pretty fatalistic, doesn't it? But don't be so sure. The antigel company guys are petroleum chemists, and darn good ones, no doubt, so they're looking at the problem like good petroleum chemists would. I bet durn few if any of 'em are aware of the fact that ole Mother Nature has already solved the problem of keeping long-chain alkanes fluid at below-freezing temperatures. Case in point: you and I (and soybeans, and all other plants and animals) are chock-full of long-chain alkanes. If you threw me into the ocean just offshore of the antarctic (which you might be about ready to do by now :-laf ) my alkanes would freeze, as would my intracellular water, and I'd end up stiff as a board. Meanwhile, there would be a bunch of little fishes, and krill, and diatoms and algae all swimming around my corpse, still nice and liquid. Their intracellular water is still liquid, not ice, and their long-chain alkanes are still fluid, not gelled, even though the saltwater they're swimming in is below 32*F, as is their body temperature. You do not want me to expound on how they do this -- believe me -- but suffice it to say that during three billion years of evolution Ma Nature has stumbled across a few cute chemical tricks for keeping things from freezing when its important. My point being that, yeah, a conventional petroleum chemist thinking inside the box might look at the problem and conclude its impossible to solve, but that don't make it so. Again, this is why, as a policy wonk, I'm curious to know whether anybody's doing any decent research on this topic. The answer is out there. Oo.

 

[Cooker]

If biodiesel is ever to reduce our (i. e. , civilization's) oil dependence to near-zero, then we're (i. e. , civilization) going to have to find a way to keep it liquid at freezing temperatures, since most of this planet gets pretty durn cold in the winter.

Of more importance is the fact that we would have to find a way to produce enough raw material to even come close to meeting the total demand of fuel.



Currently there is not enough tillable farmland in the US to produce enough B100 and meet our own counrty's demand for fuel.



Personally I do not think we will ever see mainstream B100 but I do think we will see more and more states follow in the footsetps of Minnesota and require all fuel sold within the state be a Biodiesel blend of some sort.

 

[WBusa]

Currently there is not enough tillable farmland in the US to produce enough B100 and meet our own counrty's demand for fuel.

A very good point indeed, Cooker. But (attempting to think outside the box here), currently we make biodiesel from food-grade soybeans or rapeseed, grown via conventional food-production methods, which aren't all that efficient and which do require tillable land. However, there are other ways to do it, too, some of which might be practical if biodiesel proved to be the answer to our problems. For instance, in my industry (biotech), we've genetically engineered all kinds of bugs (yeast, bacteria, algae) to produce various high-value chemical feedstocks. So, imagine a genetically-engineered algae designed to produce a vegetable oil. You could grow it in tank-farms in the desert (i. e. , on top of what is conventionally considered non-tillable land), recycling the water and taking full advantage of all that lovely free sunshine. With modern fermentation (AKA "bug-growing") technologies you can produce one heckofa mass of bugs in one pretty small space. Of course, the 4-wheelers would get pretty ticked off about all those tank farms blocking "their" trails I suppose you could also use floating tank-farms at sea, in which case only the sailboaters would complain. One interesting thing about this approach would be that it might be very energetically efficient... no tractors chugging around, no hauling fertilizers and harvest back and forth in semi's, etc. Oh well, I can dream, can't I?



But it still comes down to this: it ain't worth the effort if the stuff is gonna turn into "I Can't Believe Its Not Diesel" every winter!

 

[LightmanE300]

Wbusa, it appears you're looking for the one answer solution to the country's fuel problems. Unfortunately I don't think biodiesel is the answer. However, it's use can make a significant impact when blended. I know it's not the total solution, but a big help. Powerservice makes a b20 specific anti-gel, called Biodiesel Arctic Express. I've run b20 down to -5, and I dont think PA gets much colder than Cleveland, if any. When I lived in FL there were no worries. I ran b100 exclusively for 35,000 miles in my TDI.



Aside from all of the global impacts, it sure is nice to have so much more lubricity and a quieter/smoother idle.

 

[WBusa]

Thanks, Lightman. I agree there's not one answer to our energy problem, and biodiesel is not "the" answer, but part of the mix. Just curious to understand how far it can go.



FYI, I ran some quick "back of the envelope" calculations last night. Based on an average daily solar illumination of 1270 BTU/sq. ft. at sea level at latitude 10 N (for example), and taking the US fossil fuel consumption (both oil and nat. gas) as 0. 17 quadrillion BTUs per day, you'd need an area of about 4,800 sq. miles (a square 70 miles on each side) to intercept solar energy equal to US fossil fuel consumption. Of course, that assumes 100% efficiency of catching and converting the energy... more realistically, you'd prolly be lucky to achieve 1% efficiency, thus requiring 480,000 sq. miles -- a little less than twice the size of Texas. Now that's a big spread! I don't even want to think about how much nitrogen fertilizer you'd need, and what it would cost.



Long story short: B20 might be an interesting "hamburger helper" to help stretch our oil supplies, but running our society on B100 looks like a non-starter.

 

[LightmanE300]

Dont forget that much of commercially produced biodiesel is sourced from waste vegetable oil. I know one company up in new england gladly takes all of the oil from a local peanut and potato chip companies - as it's very clean. It doesn't ALL have to be grown.

 

[WBusa]

Dont forget that much of commercially produced biodiesel is sourced from waste vegetable oil. I know one company up in new england gladly takes all of the oil from a local peanut and potato chip companies - as it's very clean. It doesn't ALL have to be grown.

True enough, but this really comes under the heading of "recycling" rather than "alternative energy sources"... kind-of hard to run the U. S. economy (or even any significant fraction of it) on french fries and potato chips.

 

[LightmanE300]

I think you'd be surprised at how much waste veg oil there is out there, and of course our usage isn't stopping any time soon. I'm just pointing out that there are other sources for bio than virgin veg oil. I think about 20-30% of the oil used for commercially sold bio is made from WVO. Again, not trying to 'run the US economy' , just trying to move in the direction of a more responsible fuel solution.

 

[Jeremiah]

It's a way to save money

I think you'd be surprised at how much waste veg oil there is out there, and of course our usage isn't stopping any time soon. I'm just pointing out that there are other sources for bio than virgin veg oil. I think about 20-30% of the oil used for commercially sold bio is made from WVO. Again, not trying to 'run the US economy' , just trying to move in the direction of a more responsible fuel solution.

I agree. Studies have been done showing how much fuel is burned by cars idling at stop lights. So-called experts have even urged drivers to turn the engine off instead of letting it idle and now there are the hybrids that quit running entirely when the car is stopped. So while it's very true that waste veggie oil from thousands of Chinese restaurants around the country won't make a dent in how much dino oil is burned, it would be a start. You know what they say about the longest journey beginning with a single step ...