Starting a Biodiesel Forum........

[archer2500]

I'm up for the BIO Diesel forum... also is there anything that must be done to a 2000 24V to run BIO? I found a local FS station in Champaign, IL that sells it. I am going to check out the price today.

 

[Jeremiah]

You shouldn't have to do anything. You might find the price a bit higher, though.

 

[LightmanE300]

I really think a Fuels/Lubricants section of the forum is necessary. Think of all of the oil questions alone! I don't know why you are so against it Steve, but I think it would really be a lively area, and help the site gain more focus.



As for the amount of waste veg oil out there - forget chinese restaurants - do you know how many fast food restaurants there are in this country?? A whole lotta fries Let's not forget all of the potato chip and snack companies that are constantly making chips. . Am I saying I think there's enough to sustain the country? No, I haven't done any research in that area and I doubt it, however, it's enough to make a huge dent in our foreign oil consumption and carbon pollution - not to mention adding serious lubricity to the soon to be (2006) ultra low sulfur diesel - which needs it. Oh well, all of the guys like you and me on this thread are making a good start. Biodiesel consumption per gallons in this country is growing really fast over the last few years. I have no doubt a good percentage of it is due to internet forums. The amount of people running bio on the TDIclub is mindblowing. Too bad they take so darn long to burn it :-laf

 

[Jeremiah]

I really think a Fuels/Lubricants section of the forum is necessary. Think of all of the oil questions alone! ------------



Am I saying I think there's enough to sustain the country? No, I haven't done any research in that area and I doubt it, however, it's enough to make a huge dent in our foreign oil consumption and carbon pollution - not to -----------

"however, it's enough to make a huge dent in our foreign oil consumption and carbon pollution"



Sadly, it wouldn't make a tiny dent in either, but it would be a first step, which is where those long journeys begin.

 

[LightmanE300]

What evidence do you have to say that it wouldn't make a tiny dent in either, if there was hugely widespread use of biodiesel? If every pump in the country became b20 - which is totally doable - I'd say that would be a lot more than 'not even a tiny dent'. . I think that would be quite significant. The figures they provided for Minnesota's carbon reduction from the switch to b2 statewide were staggering. It was in millions of tons.

 

[barbwire]

What evidence do you have to say that it wouldn't make a tiny dent in either, if there was hugely widespread use of biodiesel? If every pump in the country became b20 - which is totally doable - I'd say that would be a lot more than 'not even a tiny dent'. . I think that would be quite significant. The figures they provided for Minnesota's carbon reduction from the switch to b2 statewide were staggering. It was in millions of tons.

If everypump in America went to b20, wouldn't that alone be 20% of all fuel consumed? Then if on top of that there were 5% of the pumps that went to b100, that would even boost the # higher than 20%. Not???? 20% of the fuel consumed in Am. would be in the millions of gallons.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

It's not that I'm against it Lightman. There just isn't that much activity yet to justify a completely seperate forum for it. This thread has gotten 104 replies in 9 months. Forums that get too split up with too many forums just aren't very usable. I've been keeping my eye on the amount of activity and once it gets to a level that would support it's own forum we'll do it.

 

[Jeremiah]

Biodiesel replacing dino oil

What evidence do you have to say that it wouldn't make a tiny dent in either, if there was hugely widespread use of biodiesel? If every pump in the country became b20 - which is totally doable - I'd say that would be a lot more than 'not even a tiny dent'. . I think that would be quite significant. The figures they provided for Minnesota's carbon reduction from the switch to b2 statewide were staggering. It was in millions of tons.

Now you're adding another qualifier - "widespread use of biodiesel. " That wasn't what you said the first time. Here's what you said and I quote: "Let's not forget all of the potato chip and snack companies that are constantly making chips. . Am I saying I think there's enough to sustain the country? No, I haven't done any research in that area ... "



Other companies have done the research - I have read the figures but have no intention of going back and trying to find them again - and even if all of us truck drivers began using waste grease 100 percent of the time, there aren't enough trucks and restaurants and chip makers to make a 1 percent dent in the amount of crude we buy overseas. You're forgetting the millions of automobiles, thousands of planes, etc. , that don't burn biodiesel.



But you're also forgetting my last sentence, which was something along the lines of a long journey beginning with one step. I am in favor of mom and pop "plants" that make biodiesel. It keeps the conversation going and one of these days biodiesel might become commercially available in huge quanties from soy beans or whatever. But it ain't there now and even if it was people wouldn't buy it as long as regular diesel is less expensive. The price of bio must be competitive, otherwise, it won't sell.



There is one - ONE - biodiesel fueling station in Colorado Springs and it's filled with commercial trucks 90 percent of the time. I have no idea what they pay per gallon but it's not worth my time to sit in line for half an hour to get to the pump. But trust me: when biodiesel becomes commercially attractive, there will be dealers going into business. Just like Wal-Mart and stores that follow rooftops, fuel stations will respond when the demand is great enough.

 

[Cooker]

I have to agree with Jeremiah.



I have read more than one time that we do not have enough farmable land in the US to produce enough BIO to meet US demand (of B100 at least). Not to mention we would no longer be able to grow anything else.



I do not have any hard evidence but given the above info I would highly doubt that there is enough WVO produce in the US to turn every pump into B20.



With all that said I am in favor of BIO. I think it is a great idea and will hopefully take more steps in the right direction as far as available and price. I also agree that it would be great to see at least B2 at every pump across the country and not just MN. Hopefully we will see it sooner than later.



Now if we could just use BIO produced here in the US and not from overseas. That will be interesting to see if our consumable BIO is actually produced in the US from US products. Hmmm... .

 

[barbwire]

I have to agree with Jeremiah.



I have read more than one time that we do not have enough farmable land in the US to produce enough BIO to meet US demand (of B100 at least). Not to mention we would no longer be able to grow anything else.



I do not have any hard evidence but given the above info I would highly doubt that there is enough WVO produce in the US to turn every pump into B20.

... .

It is unbelievable the amount of land in N. D. alone that the government pays the land owners "not to farm"... . You know CRP. If there was a big enough interest, and the Govt. got out of it, I think there are enough young people in this country that could farm this idle land, which would provide employment, and more fuel. I am sure that someone will provide a down side to this , but... ... .

Also, as far as a bio forum goes, I would think that with the rising fuel cost, it will generate more and more interest. JMO

 

[mhenon]

Well, dang it, you guys have got me started... I'm gettin' real inter'sted in biodiesel now. I suppose this comes from my long-held conviction that many of our civilization's most difficult problems today stem from our total dependence on dino fuel, combined with the general impracticality of most renewable and 'alternative' energy sources. But biodiesel -- if the last remaining kinks could be worked out of it -- really could work as a general substitute for petroleum fuels, couldn't it? Throw in zero net greenhouse gas emissions, favorable geo-politics, and more markets for my soybean-growing neighbors, and it just seems like a no-brainer, don't it?



But, being a curmudgeon from waaaay back, and a scientist by training, I do have some remaining issues, which I'd like to throw open for discussion here:



1. Has anyone ever conducted (and published in a peer-reviewed journal) a careful study of how much energy is consumed in the production of a gallon of biodiesel? Such an analysis would, I'd hope, include the energy consumed by the farmer growing the beans (tractor fuel, irrigation, etc), the energy input into producing the fertilizer and perhaps pesticides he uses (for the moment I'm discounting the practicality of 'organic' biodiesel, but who knows?), the energy consumed transporting the harvest to the mill, the energy used in milling, the energy used in transesterifying and refining the oil, and the energy used in transporting the oil first to wholesalers and then to retailers, and finally pumping it into the consumer's tank. It would not include the energy donated by sunlight in the growing process, since that's 'free'.



I ask because, of course, if the total energy budget for producing a gallon of biodiesel exceeds the energy content of the fuel produced, then biodiesel might still be a decent way of 'storing sunlight' in liquid form (which is, of course, a useful thing to be able to do), but it wouldn't truly be a replacement for dino fuels (which provide a lot more energy than their production consumes, generally speaking). So, does anybody know of any reputable studies on this topic? Please don't bother pointing me to any hippy-trippy web sites (of which there's no shortage in the biodiesel world, it seems); we're talkin' legitimate scientific/economic analyses only, please.



2. It seems to me that the biggest remaining problem w/ biodiesel is gelling: I would love to be burning B100 right now (even at its premium price), but... uh... its -9* outside right now, so no thanks. Given that most of our fair land enjoys freezing winters, this is a pretty general problem. Sure, blending w/ dino fuel makes our dino go further, but it sure does take away a lot from the attractiveness of bio as a general solution to our energy problems. As I understand it, conventional anti-gel agents for dino diesel don't help a whole lot here. So my second question is this: is there any much respectable research going on today into the development of anti-gel agents for B100? I've found a few published patents at www.uspto.gov, but most of them just demonstrate that some chemical depresses the gelling point or the cold filter plugging point, without demonstrating that you can actually burn the stuff in a conventional diesel engine without ruining it. Again, I'm aware of hippy-trippy stuff on the web by some guys claiming to have solved the problem, but I'm really more interested in reputable research. Is there any out there?



Thanks!

Making bio-diesel from WVO is the way to go. Then you don't have to worry about the comcerns above... the damage has aready been done. . and they were getting ready to throw the waste oil in a land-fill.

As it only takes about 2% (B2) bio to address lubricity problems with ULSD... it's a good start. We need to take this first step.

Just do it. . the word (biodiesel) is spreading.

Mike

 

[WBusa]

A new biodiesel initiative

I just ran across this:



* * *

Rolls-Royce financing biodiesel plant in South Africa



British biodiesel fuel developer D1 said Rolls-Royce has agreed to finance construction of a new refinery in South Africa, due to become operational in the third quarter of this year. D1 announced last week a separate joint venture to produce biofuel for Europe from a nonedible plant in Saudi Arabia. http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=7698875

* * *



The rest of the world is waking up to biodiesel a lot faster than the US... and the prospect that the Middle East now wants to be a player is particularly troubling. We need to wake up and do biodiesel, big-time.

 

[DMoon]

Count me in. It's a great alternative and within reach of todays technology. This could very well be a grass roots movement in the RIGHT direction!!!

 

[AMink]

An article

Here's an article about biodiesel in Reno. There is also a video link on the right side.

http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2005/02/23/92992.php?sps=rgj.com&sch=Umbrella&sp1=rgj&sp2=umbrella&sp3=umbrella&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=umbrella

 

[CRobbins]

BTT for a freind

 

[DKayser]

Just a few ?s

A friends wife runs the deli at a local supermarket. She can get me 50 gallons a week, roughly. Do I just filter this & then blend it in 5-10% ? DK.

 

[LightmanE300]

Even though you have an older style injection system, I'd still be hesitant. I imagine it's cold there, and waste vegetable oil doesn't do well in the cold. It likes to turn solid like crisco. Most folks are talking about biodiesel here, which is much different than running straight veg oil.

 

[DKayser]

Actually,........

I was thinking about blending in 5-10% WVO to diesel & running that. I agree, a straight WVO out here in the winter would be inviting disaster. Anybody try a blended fuel yet? DK.

 

[driverswanted]

SVO (straight Vegetable Oil)

An alternative to bio-diesel is SVO. Check out http://www.greasel.com/. You can get a book for the novice which covers SVO and how to get started. You can also buy all of the hardware to run SVO. You'll see dyno results of SVO vs. Diesel fuel which may surprise you.

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

Positive Energy Balance

WBusa,

To answer you questions:

You posted-

1. Has anyone ever conducted (and published in a peer-reviewed journal) a careful study of how much energy is consumed in the production of a gallon of biodiesel? Such an analysis would, I'd hope, include the energy consumed by the farmer growing the beans (tractor fuel, irrigation, etc), the energy input into producing the fertilizer and perhaps pesticides he uses (for the moment I'm discounting the practicality of 'organic' biodiesel, but who knows?), the energy consumed transporting the harvest to the mill, the energy used in milling, the energy used in transesterifying and refining the oil, and the energy used in transporting the oil first to wholesalers and then to retailers, and finally pumping it into the consumer's tank. It would not include the energy donated by sunlight in the growing process, since that's 'free'.



Yes, there is a positive energy balance with Biodiesel, inlcuding farming, shipping, processing etc. The information has been published. Visit the National Biodiesel Board at www.biodiesel.org and search their reports database for "positive energy balance". There should be enough sources there to convince you. Some of them are even publised by people that aren't hippie tree huggers.



2. It seems to me that the biggest remaining problem w/ biodiesel is gelling: I would love to be burning B100 right now (even at its premium price), but... uh... its -9* outside right now, so no thanks. Given that most of our fair land enjoys freezing winters, this is a pretty general problem. Sure, blending w/ dino fuel makes our dino go further, but it sure does take away a lot from the attractiveness of bio as a general solution to our energy problems. As I understand it, conventional anti-gel agents for dino diesel don't help a whole lot here. So my second question is this: is there any much respectable research going on today into the development of anti-gel agents for B100? I've found a few published patents at www.uspto.gov, but most of them just demonstrate that some chemical depresses the gelling point or the cold filter plugging point, without demonstrating that you can actually burn the stuff in a conventional diesel engine without ruining it. Again, I'm aware of hippy-trippy stuff on the web by some guys claiming to have solved the problem, but I'm really more interested in reputable research. Is there any out there?



The retail petroleum business, and the OEMs are not considering B100 for a multitude of reasons, including the cloud point and cold filter plug point (CFPP). The current industry trend is towards B20. At those levels the cloud point and CFPP are minimally affected but the emission benefit is still significant. It is likely that B100 will still be offered by some petroleum distributors to fill niche markets, just like is being done currently.

To the anti-gel question-

No, to my knowledge that research has been abandoned due to the lack of success and, in all likelyhood that there would be no market(well... not no market, but a small one) for any such product. There is some research being done on cold weather problems associated with B20 Pteroleulm Diesel, B20 ULSD, and B20 FT Diesel.



Joe