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Starting a Biodiesel Forum........
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Steve St.Laurent
Staff Alumni
I'm moving this to the general diesel forum where it will get more exposure since it's off the topic of a seperate forum now.
I have a fuel forum on www.bustropolis.com you can use.
I run B5 From the pump right now, I occasionally bland as high as B50. I am considering making my Aux tank into a heated SVO tank
I would like to see a Cummins- biodiesel forum too...
I would love to see a BioDiesel/Premium Diesel/Fuel Additive (Lubrication) forum. Combining those topics could steer some activity.
I have been going to the TDIClub for a lot of my research and info.
I have been going to the TDIClub for a lot of my research and info.
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OK
I am currently running my CTD on B100 made from crops. It runs great and even with the AFC turned all the way I only get a puff of smoke.
Biodiesel is a GREAT solvent and therer are no worries sticking your hands right into the stuff. I was wrenching on the truck changing the fuel filter with a socket extension that had old dried permatex on it. AS soon as I spilled some biodiesel on it the permatex came right off.
As for first time B100 use you WILL need to change your fuel filter after a tank or two. The Biodiesel will remove ANY sludge coating your fuel system and plug up the filter. Once the sludge is gone then all is well.
As for fuel system compatability issues, most system after about 93 are compatible. Problems arise with rubber fuel hoses/components used in earlier systems, tend to degrade with bio.
I've been running on Bio since March 1st with no problems.
I live in the San Francisco area and get it delivered stored in 55g drums. It is a bit pricey. I paid $2. 80 a gallon delivered. The price has since gone up to over $3. 00 but should come down when their supplier gets back online with WVO, (waste veggie oil/fryer fat), production.
If you would like to get info on Biodiesel, brewing your own or even converting to WVO/SVO check out these yahoo forums
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Biodiesel/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vegoil-diesel/
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
I am currently running my CTD on B100 made from crops. It runs great and even with the AFC turned all the way I only get a puff of smoke.
Biodiesel is a GREAT solvent and therer are no worries sticking your hands right into the stuff. I was wrenching on the truck changing the fuel filter with a socket extension that had old dried permatex on it. AS soon as I spilled some biodiesel on it the permatex came right off.
As for first time B100 use you WILL need to change your fuel filter after a tank or two. The Biodiesel will remove ANY sludge coating your fuel system and plug up the filter. Once the sludge is gone then all is well.
As for fuel system compatability issues, most system after about 93 are compatible. Problems arise with rubber fuel hoses/components used in earlier systems, tend to degrade with bio.
I've been running on Bio since March 1st with no problems.
I live in the San Francisco area and get it delivered stored in 55g drums. It is a bit pricey. I paid $2. 80 a gallon delivered. The price has since gone up to over $3. 00 but should come down when their supplier gets back online with WVO, (waste veggie oil/fryer fat), production.
If you would like to get info on Biodiesel, brewing your own or even converting to WVO/SVO check out these yahoo forums
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Biodiesel/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vegoil-diesel/
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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I am sure that if I am wrong, I will get corrected. I believe that if you brew your own, you must still pay the state and federal taxes associated with road fuels. Just remember to figure this in when figuring the cost of your brew.
Buying from a station, the tax is figured in the price.
As for me, I won't be running it until it is easily available and priced at or less than #2.
Just my $0. 02, but worth less in today's economy.
Buying from a station, the tax is figured in the price.
As for me, I won't be running it until it is easily available and priced at or less than #2.
Just my $0. 02, but worth less in today's economy.
I've actually looked into that, it varies by state. One states allow you an "Alt Fuels" permit for $180. 00 per year. Which I would gladly pay. In fact most states with alt fuels stuff on the books allow you to drive in the H. O. V. lanes... . Let me find the link that had all 50 states in it. I'll post it when I find it.
I would like to say that since we are helping the enviroment we should be exempt. But then there are whiners who might complain that we aren't paying taxes. I figure electric vehicles don't pay road taxes... . and so what if they don't.
I would like to say that since we are helping the enviroment we should be exempt. But then there are whiners who might complain that we aren't paying taxes. I figure electric vehicles don't pay road taxes... . and so what if they don't.
SEmerson,
Since you are running 100% bio-diesel and live in southern Cal, did you add fuel line and tank heaters to warm up the fuel?
I know that veggie oil gets real thick when it is cold and heaters are required.
Here in the Phoenix area, I'm not using heaters yet so feel that the summer time is okay. Although I have read somewhere that the VP44 pump would sure like to have the fuel about as thin as diesel.
Since you are running 100% bio-diesel and live in southern Cal, did you add fuel line and tank heaters to warm up the fuel?
I know that veggie oil gets real thick when it is cold and heaters are required.
Here in the Phoenix area, I'm not using heaters yet so feel that the summer time is okay. Although I have read somewhere that the VP44 pump would sure like to have the fuel about as thin as diesel.
From what I understand if you brew your own you do not pay road taxes I mean, how is it documented?
True WVO is not "direct from crop" based biodiesel but it is still biodiesel if it is processed, (tranesterified)... . it has just been used for a different purpose enroute to your or my tank. WVO or SVO can be used directly in a diesel IF it has been filtered, settled and heater mods have been added to your fuel system. Biodiesel on the other hand need no mods to your vehicle to run it.
As for the cost, for me and my environmental concerns as well as the lower dependance on foreign oil the following are reasons enough for me to use B100 as opposed to "dino"diesel
The following two charts are from a Report on Bus Alternatives, authored
by the Alternative Fuel Vehicle Program sponsored by HGCI, UOS, Ford
Motor Company and Harvard University. Actual numbers can vary from
vehicle to vehicle, therefore all numbers have been rounded to the
nearest 5%. The electric category is for a battery-powered vehicle
running off the New England power grid, and the hybrid (D/E) is a [dino]
diesel/electric hybrid. The emissions are calculated using the Argonne
National Laboratory 's GREET Model version 1. 5a. This method
calculates the entire life-cycle emissions of the fuel types including
gathering of feedstock, fuel production and tailpipe emissions.
GH Gases Emissions/Mile for a Passenger Car
Fuel GH Gases Pmatter NOx VOCs CO
Gasoline +35% -70 -55 +170 +415
CNG +20 -80 -45 -30 +190
LPG +20 -80 -60 0 +210
E-85 0 -75 -55 +130 +210
Diesel 0 0 0 0 0
B20 -15 -20 0 -10 -15
Hybrid (D/E) -30 -20 -20 -20 -20
Electric -45 -80 -95 -100 -100
B100 -70 -55 +5 -55 -45
Note: The above chart uses Diesel as the base line. All of the emission
types are ± in percentages from diesel.
Grams CO2 Equivalent/Mile (lower number equals less overall pollution)
B100 =115 grams
Electric =205
Diesel Hybrid =250
B20 =325
E85 =375
Diesel =380
LPG =440
CNG =460
Gasoline =510
Here is the state by state alt fuels link
States alt fuels links
Oo. oooo a site I just found citing research done on two CTD's of early 90's vintage in which they ran them on B100 for a total of 160k miles
CTD study
True WVO is not "direct from crop" based biodiesel but it is still biodiesel if it is processed, (tranesterified)... . it has just been used for a different purpose enroute to your or my tank. WVO or SVO can be used directly in a diesel IF it has been filtered, settled and heater mods have been added to your fuel system. Biodiesel on the other hand need no mods to your vehicle to run it.
As for the cost, for me and my environmental concerns as well as the lower dependance on foreign oil the following are reasons enough for me to use B100 as opposed to "dino"diesel
The following two charts are from a Report on Bus Alternatives, authored
by the Alternative Fuel Vehicle Program sponsored by HGCI, UOS, Ford
Motor Company and Harvard University. Actual numbers can vary from
vehicle to vehicle, therefore all numbers have been rounded to the
nearest 5%. The electric category is for a battery-powered vehicle
running off the New England power grid, and the hybrid (D/E) is a [dino]
diesel/electric hybrid. The emissions are calculated using the Argonne
National Laboratory 's GREET Model version 1. 5a. This method
calculates the entire life-cycle emissions of the fuel types including
gathering of feedstock, fuel production and tailpipe emissions.
GH Gases Emissions/Mile for a Passenger Car
Fuel GH Gases Pmatter NOx VOCs CO
Gasoline +35% -70 -55 +170 +415
CNG +20 -80 -45 -30 +190
LPG +20 -80 -60 0 +210
E-85 0 -75 -55 +130 +210
Diesel 0 0 0 0 0
B20 -15 -20 0 -10 -15
Hybrid (D/E) -30 -20 -20 -20 -20
Electric -45 -80 -95 -100 -100
B100 -70 -55 +5 -55 -45
Note: The above chart uses Diesel as the base line. All of the emission
types are ± in percentages from diesel.
Grams CO2 Equivalent/Mile (lower number equals less overall pollution)
B100 =115 grams
Electric =205
Diesel Hybrid =250
B20 =325
E85 =375
Diesel =380
LPG =440
CNG =460
Gasoline =510
Here is the state by state alt fuels link
States alt fuels links
Oo. oooo a site I just found citing research done on two CTD's of early 90's vintage in which they ran them on B100 for a total of 160k miles
CTD study
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Bio-diesel vs Waste Veggie oil
Bio-diesel, at any level, is a direct replacement for diesel #2 fuel. There have been issues with "O" rings and seals in the past, but I think those days are over. Any modern diesel engine should run fine on store bought bio-diesel. What some buddy is making in his garage... now that's another story... may be good stuff... maybe not.
Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO) is something else. All diesel engines will burn it... but some are better than others.
This is where the real savings (money-wise) are however. If you know of a local resturant that needs to get rid of cooking oil, for instance, you can clean this up and burn it in your Cummins engine. Since Cummins allows you to burn your waste engine oil (at up to 5%) you can certainly burn WVO at the same rate. Make sure it's clean and filtered (ton's of info out there) and I don't see a problem. If you want to go past the 5% recommendation... your on your own. There is plenty of info on injectors fouling up and cylinders glazing at high ratio's of veggie oil. Some oils are worse than others and some engines are worse than others.
But if you mixing small amounts (less than 20% WVO to fuel) almost any diesel engine will handle it.
Do your homework and use what your comfortable with. I'm using B20 at this time and both the Ram and the Jetta run fine on it. I also just can't throw out any waste veggie oil. A quart here. . a quart there. . it all goes in the Cummins. The truck gets over 20 mpg so I don't think anything is getting plugged up. I occasionally run a straight tank of #2 with injector cleaner but don't know if it's really needed. Makes me feel good though.
Anyway, I'm all for an "Alt fuel" forum but we can do it from here. Look at "Freds TDI" web-page for now. It's a VW page and they already have a bio-diesel forum. Interesting stuff there too.
Mike
Bio-diesel, at any level, is a direct replacement for diesel #2 fuel. There have been issues with "O" rings and seals in the past, but I think those days are over. Any modern diesel engine should run fine on store bought bio-diesel. What some buddy is making in his garage... now that's another story... may be good stuff... maybe not.
Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO) is something else. All diesel engines will burn it... but some are better than others.
This is where the real savings (money-wise) are however. If you know of a local resturant that needs to get rid of cooking oil, for instance, you can clean this up and burn it in your Cummins engine. Since Cummins allows you to burn your waste engine oil (at up to 5%) you can certainly burn WVO at the same rate. Make sure it's clean and filtered (ton's of info out there) and I don't see a problem. If you want to go past the 5% recommendation... your on your own. There is plenty of info on injectors fouling up and cylinders glazing at high ratio's of veggie oil. Some oils are worse than others and some engines are worse than others.
But if you mixing small amounts (less than 20% WVO to fuel) almost any diesel engine will handle it.
Do your homework and use what your comfortable with. I'm using B20 at this time and both the Ram and the Jetta run fine on it. I also just can't throw out any waste veggie oil. A quart here. . a quart there. . it all goes in the Cummins. The truck gets over 20 mpg so I don't think anything is getting plugged up. I occasionally run a straight tank of #2 with injector cleaner but don't know if it's really needed. Makes me feel good though.
Anyway, I'm all for an "Alt fuel" forum but we can do it from here. Look at "Freds TDI" web-page for now. It's a VW page and they already have a bio-diesel forum. Interesting stuff there too.
Mike
I seriously doubt we will ever see diesel prices on the west coast return to less than $1. 75 a gallon - once the foreign countries and our own petroleum empires get their hands in your pocket, you'll never get them out...
I would hope to see interest on this subject motivate a forum for it - meanwhile I will certainly keep an eye on it. Main issue for me, and probably others, is the problem in obtaining a reliable source for the raw material - I find it hard to accept that today's hazardous waste laws permit various sources to simply pass out their waste to any who happen to come along asking for it - but haven't approached any locally, so dunno. You guys who are doing this in a serious manner, do you supply the individual restaurant with a storage container, or do they usually have a volume storage container of their own - and what quantities of oil do you obtain on a weekly, monthly or whatever schedule you use?
I have a few 50 gallon plastic drums that sure would be excellent for this use...
I would hope to see interest on this subject motivate a forum for it - meanwhile I will certainly keep an eye on it. Main issue for me, and probably others, is the problem in obtaining a reliable source for the raw material - I find it hard to accept that today's hazardous waste laws permit various sources to simply pass out their waste to any who happen to come along asking for it - but haven't approached any locally, so dunno. You guys who are doing this in a serious manner, do you supply the individual restaurant with a storage container, or do they usually have a volume storage container of their own - and what quantities of oil do you obtain on a weekly, monthly or whatever schedule you use?
I have a few 50 gallon plastic drums that sure would be excellent for this use...
"I find it hard to accept that today's hazardous waste laws permit various sources to simply pass out their waste to any who happen to come along asking for it"
A very limited research effort would show that generally vegetable oil is not listed as a hazardous waste and so is not subject to the volumnuos regulation applied in the realm of used petroleum motor oils.
http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-WASTE/1998/August/Day-06/f19929.htm
http://www.dot.state.ny.us/eab/epm/5-1att.pdf
A greater difficulty in obtaining good sources of usable product will likely be that the producer is putting it into his own fuel tank!
A very limited research effort would show that generally vegetable oil is not listed as a hazardous waste and so is not subject to the volumnuos regulation applied in the realm of used petroleum motor oils.
http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-WASTE/1998/August/Day-06/f19929.htm
http://www.dot.state.ny.us/eab/epm/5-1att.pdf
A greater difficulty in obtaining good sources of usable product will likely be that the producer is putting it into his own fuel tank!
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Sneaking suspicion
I have a sneaking suspicion that there's more interest in bio-diesel than you might think. In fact, I think it's cutting edge stuff. Just the other day a report on NPR said something about a diesel truck running all the way from somewhere to New Mexico burning (I am not kidding) grease from fast-food joints. I think the TDR should be leading the way on this and not simply reacting.
I have a sneaking suspicion that there's more interest in bio-diesel than you might think. In fact, I think it's cutting edge stuff. Just the other day a report on NPR said something about a diesel truck running all the way from somewhere to New Mexico burning (I am not kidding) grease from fast-food joints. I think the TDR should be leading the way on this and not simply reacting.
I read an article last week about a VolksWagen TDI that is running around the world trying to teach people about using renewable sources for fuel. They have had zero trouble getting their fuel stocks at the fast food places.
They stop in, buy some food, and casually talk to the folks on duty about what they do with their oil.
According to the article, they are pouring the oil straight into their fuel tank thru a filter they have with them to catch the solids. Guess they don't worry about water. Maybe it hasn't been a problem.
They stop in, buy some food, and casually talk to the folks on duty about what they do with their oil.
According to the article, they are pouring the oil straight into their fuel tank thru a filter they have with them to catch the solids. Guess they don't worry about water. Maybe it hasn't been a problem.
I can't find the link... ... ... 
anyway there is a great link out there that has every state out there listed and the costs and benefits of registering your vehicle as an alternative fuel vehicle.
anyway there is a great link out there that has every state out there listed and the costs and benefits of registering your vehicle as an alternative fuel vehicle.
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Digital Magazines
FREE!
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Renew
Subscribe
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Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
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What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
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