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synthetic oil
- Thread starter mlddodge
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Some differences:
1. Delvac has a TBN (total base number) of at least 11, Mobil 1 starts out only about 7. This reflects the amount of detergent available and also the ability of the oil to neutralize acids produced from burning diesel fuel, which contains more sulfur than gasoline.
2. In order for an API certification for gas engines, Mobile 1 must have under 1000 ppm phosphorous. This limits the amount of ZDDP anti-wear additive that can be used. Delvac contains more ZDDP since catalytic converters are not an issue for a diesel.
3. Mobile 1 has a high temperature viscosity (at 212 degrees F) engineered toward the lowest end of the weight range. 5 or 10W - 30 Mobile 1 is almost a 20 weight oil. This is fine in gas engines and improves fuel mileage a bit. Delvac is engineered at the high end of the 40 weight range. Regardless of what anyone else tells you, engine protection under load is mostly about maintaining oil viscosity.
4. Mobile 1 has very poor soot holding capacity since it is designed for gas engines. As soot increases, it tends to agglomerate into large particles that affect the flow and lubrication properties of the oil. Delvac 1 is still an effective lubricant with up to 7% soot!
If you use Mobil 1 in a Cummins, you won't immediately break down. But you will significantly reduce the useful life of the engine over time. Especially if you go more than say 3000 miles between changes.
1. Delvac has a TBN (total base number) of at least 11, Mobil 1 starts out only about 7. This reflects the amount of detergent available and also the ability of the oil to neutralize acids produced from burning diesel fuel, which contains more sulfur than gasoline.
2. In order for an API certification for gas engines, Mobile 1 must have under 1000 ppm phosphorous. This limits the amount of ZDDP anti-wear additive that can be used. Delvac contains more ZDDP since catalytic converters are not an issue for a diesel.
3. Mobile 1 has a high temperature viscosity (at 212 degrees F) engineered toward the lowest end of the weight range. 5 or 10W - 30 Mobile 1 is almost a 20 weight oil. This is fine in gas engines and improves fuel mileage a bit. Delvac is engineered at the high end of the 40 weight range. Regardless of what anyone else tells you, engine protection under load is mostly about maintaining oil viscosity.
4. Mobile 1 has very poor soot holding capacity since it is designed for gas engines. As soot increases, it tends to agglomerate into large particles that affect the flow and lubrication properties of the oil. Delvac 1 is still an effective lubricant with up to 7% soot!
If you use Mobil 1 in a Cummins, you won't immediately break down. But you will significantly reduce the useful life of the engine over time. Especially if you go more than say 3000 miles between changes.
Excellent post Lee!! Thanks!
Chris
Chris
Cool cause I am curious. I have the BMK-15 and am using 5w 30 HD diesel oil. But as soon as I can afford the oil I am going back to the 15w 40. I only have about 7000 on the lightweight and don't see a difference in the way it performs so I am not going to spend double the money for it. And since I don't live in a super cold climate I don't need a lower viscosity oil. Oh well, had to try it. 
Edit--Keep us posted Don.
Edit--Keep us posted Don.
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Re: Re: SHOOTOUT
What test are you referring to? If it is the one being argued recently on the VW TDI site, you are mistaken. The Amsoil in question in that test was Series 2000 0W-30, a gas engine oil.
Facts, give us facts. Sensationalism serves no useful purpose.
What test are you referring to? If it is the one being argued recently on the VW TDI site, you are mistaken. The Amsoil in question in that test was Series 2000 0W-30, a gas engine oil.
Facts, give us facts. Sensationalism serves no useful purpose.
I've been using Delvac 1 for about the last 12k miles; no problems, maybe less oil consumption than the Amsoil 3000 5/30 I used before but I can't really prove that - just a gross observation.
While we're on the subject of synthetics, anybody know how Amsoil 0/30 stacks up against Mobil 1 in gas motors, say like Jaguar (4. 2 L dohc 6)?
While we're on the subject of synthetics, anybody know how Amsoil 0/30 stacks up against Mobil 1 in gas motors, say like Jaguar (4. 2 L dohc 6)?
IS it time yet?
I have happily run synthetics in all my gassers over the years- I have 13k miles on the truck- no towing- too early to go to the Delvac?
I have happily run synthetics in all my gassers over the years- I have 13k miles on the truck- no towing- too early to go to the Delvac?
WDaniels: I can relate my experience with you, but I am not an oil engineer. I have been using the Cummins Valvoline semi-synthetic motor oil for 15 years and never had any problems. Last semi truck had 800,000 miles when I traded and never had the head off. I go 30,000 miles between changes. Also use it in my Dodge, but no extended changes. It has 82,000 miles on it and doesn't use any oil between changes. Use the better microglas filters though.
Michael
Michael
Vaughn MacKenzie
TDR MEMBER
Originally posted by Chipstien
Cool cause I am curious. I have the BMK-15 and am using 5w 30 HD diesel oil. But as soon as I can afford the oil I am going back to the 15w 40. I only have about 7000 on the lightweight and don't see a difference in the way it performs so I am not going to spend double the money for it. And since I don't live in a super cold climate I don't need a lower viscosity oil. Oh well, had to try it.
Chipstein, I ran both Amsoil 15W40 and 5W30 for 20k mile change intervals and sampled every 10k. One change with the 5W30 was enough to tell me it did not protect as well as the 15W40 based on the wear metal results (Iron count went from 41ppm to 88ppm over 20k interval). Not that it's a bad oil but I think the 15W40 is a better choice for the Cummins. The viscosity @100C is a lot higher than the 5W30 and I think adequate viscosity is a lot more critical on a diesel vs a gasser due to super high loading pressures between internal parts.
Right now I am running Delvac 1 5W40 to see what wear numbers I get with that. Delvac 1 has a vis about the same as the Amsoil 15W40 yet pours at a colder temperature than the thinner Amsoil 5W30. Best of both worlds.
Vaughn
When I switched from Delvac 1 to Amsoil 5W-30, my wear rates went down, but...
They continued going down for the next several samples, all on Amsoil. My conclusion was that break in was still underway, and this more than offset any minor differences between the wear protection of these two oils.
After much thought, and way too much staring at data, both mine and others, I recently switched to the Amsoil 15W-40. No data yet, but since most of my miles are highway with fewer "cold starts" than most drivers, I just no longer see how 5W-30 could be the better choice for my particular needs. Someone with a lot of cold starts in a colder climate might see lower wear rates with 5W-30, but that's not me.
They continued going down for the next several samples, all on Amsoil. My conclusion was that break in was still underway, and this more than offset any minor differences between the wear protection of these two oils.
After much thought, and way too much staring at data, both mine and others, I recently switched to the Amsoil 15W-40. No data yet, but since most of my miles are highway with fewer "cold starts" than most drivers, I just no longer see how 5W-30 could be the better choice for my particular needs. Someone with a lot of cold starts in a colder climate might see lower wear rates with 5W-30, but that's not me.
Vaughn MacKenzie
TDR MEMBER
HC, I noticed whenever I changed brands or types of oil my wear numbers always were worst for that oil on the first change and then would always improve with each subsequent change on that oil. I could have given the 5W30 another chance but I was a little nervous to continue running it. I didn't feel comfortable driving with that weight of oil when it is in the 100s here and I'm pushing my truck.
I am going to run 2 changes of Delvac 1 and see how the numbers look then settle on it or the Amsoil 15W40.
Vaughn
I am going to run 2 changes of Delvac 1 and see how the numbers look then settle on it or the Amsoil 15W40.
Vaughn
A comparison between 5W-40 Delvac 1, Amsoil 15W-40 HD Diesel and Marine, and Amsoil 3000 5W-30? All are mostly Group IV PAO (polyalphaolyfin) with Group V ester-based synthetic added for increased additive solubility and enhanced boundary lubrication at startup. Based on initial TBN and detergent chemistry, the 3000 series seems to have the most robust additive package for the long haul followed by the HD and Delvac. Trying to get specific composition information from oil companies is like asking Microsoft for developer code; we ain’t gonna get it. But the 3000 series appears to be the most ambitious product. It clearly uses a unique anti-wear chemistry since internal engine parts take on a tan or gold appearance when 3000 is used. This suggests that something other than standard ZPPD is plating out on surfaces to provide a sacrificial layer under boundary lubrication conditions (when no oil film separates the metal). Amsoil insiders claim that a special shear-resistant viscosity improver is used that maintains oil viscosity over extended drain intervals. But most VI improvers used in premium oils nowadays are of the non-linear, shear resistant type. I have seen no specific evidence that the 3000 series uses anything special, but it might. The lower viscosity of the 3000 series oil should provide a small advantage with respect to horsepower and fuel economy vs the 40 weights. Both Amsoil products are additivized to emphasize boundary lubrication properties. This is why they excel in the 4-ball wear test, which is not as relevant to a motor oil as it might seem. Boundary lubrication chemistry minimizes wear under conditions where the protective oil film breaks down and metal to metal contact takes place. However, the purpose of a motor oil is to maintain that film under a condition called hydrodynamic lubrication. When that film breaks down under severe engine load or high rpm, boundary lubricants aren’t going to protect for very long.
Delvac 1 (and Mobil 1) seems to be engineered to emphasis hydrodynamic lubrication properties. Mobil does much more on the road engine testing (and publishes the results as SAE reports) than Amsoil could ever afford. Delvac holds soot in suspension better than just about any other oil. This is likely do to non-metalic ashless dispersants that don’t show up in ordinary oil analysis reports. All oils contain various types of dispersants, but Delvac seems to have this chemistry really well figured out. The Cummins is not a very sooty running engine, so the importance of this property over standard drain intervals may not be great. Mobil appears to have done a lot of research on the effects of blending PAO polymers of different chain lengths (sizes) in their oils. Their new SuperSyn additive is marketed as an anti-wear compound in Mobil 1, but it is really just a longer chain PAO. By blending with shorter polymers in the right proportions, they appear to have been able to increase the load baring capacity of the hydrodynamic film without taking too big a hit on low temperature flow properties (pour point and pumpability).
Which product is best for the Cummins? First, they are all overkill unless you:
1. use extended drain intervals and bypass filtration.
2. live where the temperature spends a lot of time below 0 degrees F.
3. do lots of short trips where the oil doesn’t get a chance to warm up.
4. let your truck site for long periods between trips.
5. drag race or sled pull with your truck.
6. have a severe obsessive-compulsive disorder (but that doesn’t mean you are a bad person).
There are several reasons why you might expect to see less engine wear with synthetic oils from the git go, but oil analysis data over short initial drain intervals (3-5K miles) doesn’t show a difference between synthetics and the best conventional oils (i. e. Delo 400) under normal service. HC, myself, and others have reported similar initial wear rates with synthetic and good conventional oils. There are at least 2 reasons for this. First, the 5. 9 Cummins is not a stressed engine for our application. I believe that it is rated for a GVW of > 60,000 lb as a medium duty diesel. Second, conventional oils have had to become very good to meet CH-4 and CI-4 standards. Many now use Group II or Group II+ base stocks and additive packages equal to or better than those contained in synthetics. The newer severely hydrocracked Group III base stocks with properties approaching those of true synthetics have shown up in Chevron, Rotella, and Petro Canada 5W-40 oils that are sometimes (or should be) priced fairly. It is not clear how well the newer conventional oils or Group III products hold up during extended drain interval.
So what’s the best oil? It probably doesn’t matter. Price and availability should be the deciding factor if you want to use a synthetic. The 5W oils are better for driveability in very cold temperatures and likely allow less wear to occur during startup. I now use Amsoil 15W-40 HD since it rarely gets below the teens where I live. Gene (Sledpuller) sells it to me for a lot less than I have to pay for Delvac. Delvac gave me marginally better cold whether performance but showed the same wear metal numbers as the HD. If I lived in a colder climate I’d probably use Delvac, which costs less than Amsoil 3000.
Mimprevento - Cummins says to wait 10K before using synthetic. It takes heat to seat the rings on a new engine and synthetics carry heat away too efficiently for proper break in. At least that’s what people say. Break in takes longer without a load (less heat). But 13K should be fine.
WD - Synthetic blends are just conventional oils with an unspecified amount of PAO/ester base stock added to improve low temperature performance. IMO, they make very little sense except for situations like yours in Alaska. But a 5W-40 Group III oil would be a better choice. The conventional components in the blends, which are typically 70-90% of the base stock, shear and oxidize just as fast as in a conventional oil. No one advertises blends for extended drain intervals.
Delvac 1 (and Mobil 1) seems to be engineered to emphasis hydrodynamic lubrication properties. Mobil does much more on the road engine testing (and publishes the results as SAE reports) than Amsoil could ever afford. Delvac holds soot in suspension better than just about any other oil. This is likely do to non-metalic ashless dispersants that don’t show up in ordinary oil analysis reports. All oils contain various types of dispersants, but Delvac seems to have this chemistry really well figured out. The Cummins is not a very sooty running engine, so the importance of this property over standard drain intervals may not be great. Mobil appears to have done a lot of research on the effects of blending PAO polymers of different chain lengths (sizes) in their oils. Their new SuperSyn additive is marketed as an anti-wear compound in Mobil 1, but it is really just a longer chain PAO. By blending with shorter polymers in the right proportions, they appear to have been able to increase the load baring capacity of the hydrodynamic film without taking too big a hit on low temperature flow properties (pour point and pumpability).
Which product is best for the Cummins? First, they are all overkill unless you:
1. use extended drain intervals and bypass filtration.
2. live where the temperature spends a lot of time below 0 degrees F.
3. do lots of short trips where the oil doesn’t get a chance to warm up.
4. let your truck site for long periods between trips.
5. drag race or sled pull with your truck.
6. have a severe obsessive-compulsive disorder (but that doesn’t mean you are a bad person).
There are several reasons why you might expect to see less engine wear with synthetic oils from the git go, but oil analysis data over short initial drain intervals (3-5K miles) doesn’t show a difference between synthetics and the best conventional oils (i. e. Delo 400) under normal service. HC, myself, and others have reported similar initial wear rates with synthetic and good conventional oils. There are at least 2 reasons for this. First, the 5. 9 Cummins is not a stressed engine for our application. I believe that it is rated for a GVW of > 60,000 lb as a medium duty diesel. Second, conventional oils have had to become very good to meet CH-4 and CI-4 standards. Many now use Group II or Group II+ base stocks and additive packages equal to or better than those contained in synthetics. The newer severely hydrocracked Group III base stocks with properties approaching those of true synthetics have shown up in Chevron, Rotella, and Petro Canada 5W-40 oils that are sometimes (or should be) priced fairly. It is not clear how well the newer conventional oils or Group III products hold up during extended drain interval.
So what’s the best oil? It probably doesn’t matter. Price and availability should be the deciding factor if you want to use a synthetic. The 5W oils are better for driveability in very cold temperatures and likely allow less wear to occur during startup. I now use Amsoil 15W-40 HD since it rarely gets below the teens where I live. Gene (Sledpuller) sells it to me for a lot less than I have to pay for Delvac. Delvac gave me marginally better cold whether performance but showed the same wear metal numbers as the HD. If I lived in a colder climate I’d probably use Delvac, which costs less than Amsoil 3000.
Mimprevento - Cummins says to wait 10K before using synthetic. It takes heat to seat the rings on a new engine and synthetics carry heat away too efficiently for proper break in. At least that’s what people say. Break in takes longer without a load (less heat). But 13K should be fine.
WD - Synthetic blends are just conventional oils with an unspecified amount of PAO/ester base stock added to improve low temperature performance. IMO, they make very little sense except for situations like yours in Alaska. But a 5W-40 Group III oil would be a better choice. The conventional components in the blends, which are typically 70-90% of the base stock, shear and oxidize just as fast as in a conventional oil. No one advertises blends for extended drain intervals.
Another 76 Royal Triton QLT 15W40 user???
WD...
Thought I was the only member using 76's semi-synth.
I've been using it in my rig exclusively from 15,000 miles to present. It performs well, in my simpleton obeservations as well as in an analysis I had done. I'm adding a bypass to see how long it will go given my service.
End of the day, I get it from an area wholesale for a great price so I REALY like that aspect of it.
MaX
Ps. Lee, here's a spec link on it
http://www.tosco.com/internet_pub/repository/lubes/40_royal_triton_qlt6.pdf
In a previous comparison I saw this one beats the other (major's)ESI oils every time, but the last time they did one was a formulation or two ago.
WD...
Thought I was the only member using 76's semi-synth.
I've been using it in my rig exclusively from 15,000 miles to present. It performs well, in my simpleton obeservations as well as in an analysis I had done. I'm adding a bypass to see how long it will go given my service.
End of the day, I get it from an area wholesale for a great price so I REALY like that aspect of it.
MaX
Ps. Lee, here's a spec link on it
http://www.tosco.com/internet_pub/repository/lubes/40_royal_triton_qlt6.pdf
In a previous comparison I saw this one beats the other (major's)ESI oils every time, but the last time they did one was a formulation or two ago.
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