TDR responses to mileage a member disservice

[RKrueger]

I think TDR can do a much better job of responding to mileage inquiries by it's members than it has up to this point. I really am getting a little tired of having a serious question answered with a contrite response concerning the members driving habits.

I think it's time for TDR to start taking these questions seriously and address the subject from a technical perspective with all necessary research and testing that you would extend to any normal "power increase" type article. Whether you realize it or not, or simply choose to ignore it, a great deal of your advertisers promote increases in fuel mileage with the use of their product. Without any testing at all, a reasonably intelligent person with a normal amount of technical aptitude can understand the logic behind some of these claims. Let's take a few examples:



1. Full-flow air filters and flow-through exhausts.

The engine that can breathe easier is more efficient. Efficiency, in this respect, refers to the engine doing the same amount of work using slightly less fuel. Magna-Flow advertises "better fuel economy". Before I bought my AFE Mega-Cannon, an AFE reresentative said that many customers have reported a slight mileage increase over the stock filter.



2. Power Modules ( EZ, Bully Dog, etc)

Through software engineering, these people are controlling the power output by manipulating fuel and air to the engine. PowerEdge EZ advertises "optimized fuel efficiency)" in their EZ ads. It's not hard to see how this is possible.



3. Fuel Additives

I myself use Stanadyne Performance Additive since day #1, but they advertise a fuel mileage increase, among other things.

I have also ran out of Stanadyne, and have visibly seen the drop in mileage as a result.



4. Synthetic Oils

This is a no-brainer... especially in the colder weather. Synthetics do not suffer the molecular breakdown typical of mineral oils, by their design. As mineral oils deteriorate, the ability to act as a "shield" between two mating surfaces becomes less, and friction increases. Their viscosity is not altered by normal changes in ambient temperature as is mineral oils. Here is a snip of an Amsoil letter:



"... we offer our AMSOIL Series 3000 Synthetic

5W30 Heavy Duty Diesel Oil (HDD). It surpasses the API Energy Conserving

Rating requirements designed to provide significant fuel savings. "



5. Injectors

I personally have the OEM injectors, but I have been told by the reps at Diesel Dynamics that most customers that purchased the Stage 1 injectors have had an increase in their fuel mileage. The average is 2mpg, but others have reported 4 or more. I was also told that they couldn't promote this as an absolute fact, but this has been the results. This is also not hard to understand. They take a standard injector, ultra-polish the surfaces that come in contact with the fuel, and insure that each injector in the set pops off at exactly the same psi. Injecting a finer mist of fuel into the combustion chamber greatly enhances its combustion efficiency.



6. Auto Transmission Upgrades

transmission people advertise mileage increases due to earlier lockup. Anytime you aren't going through the Torque Converter, you're saving gas.



This list is only a sampling of things taken from the TDR mag, and talking to TDR suppliers. So I think it's time the Editors took this subject a little more seriously than they have in the past. I have seen many inquiries by members on this subject, and never seen one sincere, technically oriented response by another member other than to take your foot off the pedal.

There's a lot of article potential here. The results could be derived through dyno testing. I am personally aware of the cost-benefit ratio of adding particular components to achieve an increase in fuel efficiency, but this is not for TDR to decide, it's strictly a member decision. TDR should install the device, dyno the results, publish the street price, and show members how many miles they would have to drive before they actually started seeing a return on their investment (R. O. I) There is probably a great many members that travel 20K+ miles a year for one reason or another. Others may not be so concerned with the initial outlay if they can bump up their mileage figures by 2 - 4. Let each of us decide.

You report the facts.



Regards,

Robert

 

[Snow man]

Robert , I agree with you to a point that the info should be there. I do not think numbers should be there as far as gains unless they are the full range minimuj/maximum. As for the MPG increases,and getting your money back in modifying your truck,its gets foggy there. For one every truck does not respond the same to a set of injectors,and trans work,once you are outside the original parameters set by Dodge you are on your own. No warranty and no guarantees its going to be very driveable. The problem lies with what do you do with the trucks that have problems after you modify them, the ones that stall repeatedly after a set of stage 3 injectors? My truck was a classic example,it took me 3 months to get it straightened out,the truck stalled all the time,while an identically set up truck that i set up did not ever stall. Is the TDR supposed to be liable if they publish the info about the gains a set of stage 1 injectors make,if a particular truck does not gain any MPG? Explain logically why my set of drug pusher Bully Dog 7's got better mpg than the DD stage 3s in my truck,the bd7 blew raw soot out the tail pipe on startup,and constantly smoked anytime i was below 2000RPM under a load,while the dd3's burned clean and only smoked under heavy foot low boost. I think us members need to step i nand help fellow members when they need assistance selecting products to use. This is fine ,but those being sponsored need to stay out of those threads since there help is somewhat biased.

 

[illflem]

Never thought TDR was in the testing business nor should they get into it. All of the examples you stated have been covered here as examples of modifications that may increase your mpgs. Here's just one thread of many https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58034

It does boil down to driving style effects your mpgs more than any other single factor.

 

[RKrueger]

I am not proposing that -any- vendor be directly involved in responding to member's mileage inquiries, nor to the tests conducted by TDR or Geno's Garage.

While every truck is different, and it's intended use may differ, certain similarities exist. It is a fact that certain modifications will improve the fuel efficiency of your truck, regardless of what you do with it.

And yes, the figures must be published on a typically configured test truck. How else can you guage the increase? You, or your truck may not see this increase, that must be understood at the beginning, for a variety of reasons. But it shows a trend, and that is what is important.

There are a lot of members who have made the decision to go the power route, so mileage may not be an primary issue. This is for the majority of Dodge Cummins owners who want either no power increase, but would like to have better fuel efficiency, or others who want a "modest" increase and

better fuel efficiency. Regardless, there are many choices out there that members can make to improve the fuel efficiency of their trucks. TDR should start testing these choices to serve the members with this goal in mind.

 

[RKrueger]

illflem,

You missed the point



And TDR does, as a matter of fact, publish a great many "How-To" articles done by a variety of professional people that contribute the results to TDR. TDR does not, to my knowledge, have an "official" garage or testing site. But they do exercise "Editorial Privilege" by selecting which articles get included, and, I suspect, can stimulate testing by a few well-placed phone calls to contributors and affiliates like Geno's Garage.

 

[RKrueger]

illflem,

BTW, I took a look at your link, and it was exactly what I said in my post. No serious technically-based responses, just a regurgitation of something most people know anyhow.

Here's another way to phrase the question:



If a person drives his/her Cummins powered vehicle from point A to point B at 65 mph, and exercises prudent driving habits what equipment can this person install that will result in an increase in fuel mileage?



... and that's why this post belongs in the Engine/Drivetrain section. There are a number of changes you can make in this area that will positively affect your engine's fuel efficiency, all other things being equal, including your driving habits.

 

[JR2]

RKrueger - The TDR is always looking for contributions, lots of its articles are written on a voluntary basis. I suggest that if you want to see more info on fuel mileage increase that you do some research and write an article.





You could also do a search in the archives and find lots of info. No matter what you want to believe, keeping your foot off the go pedal and keeping the RPM in the sweet spot will get you better mileage. A K&N air filter and 4" inch exhaust will do noting.

 

[bighammer]

You also have to consider the fact that some BOMBs change normal driving habits D) and negate the positive impact on fuel efficiency.







(Damn, I can sound smart sometimes Oo. )

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

FIRST of all, members asking for fuel mileage info get exactly the SAME quality of info they would on power related questions or tire wear rates - all over the map!



This is, after all, a MEMBERSHIP board and group - and the TDR mag itself relies upon reader submitted material, just as this board does - and the expertise or credibility of stuff provided is often in direct ratio to the expertise of the one submitting the info...



Power mods - and results - are quickly and easily substantiated by use of a dyno - fuel mileage results are GREATLY colored by terrain, location and driving styles of the vehicle owners - and even then, meaningful results would take months and MANY miles of CONTROLLED and all-around driving conditions to have any real reliability or credibility.



About the best we can hope for, is the best seat-of-the-pants comments from a wide variety of members in establishing baseline mileage figures - even if *I* can get 20 mpg driving my own truck over a given 100 mile course, does that mean YOU will get that same mileage over the SAME course, in the SAME truck? Not likely! I probably wouldn't get the same mileage twice in a row myself!



As an example, I drove my '98 Camaro SS carefully from Reno Nevada to Winnemuca 3 different trips, under as nearly as possible identical conditions - my mileage for those 3 trips ranged from a low of 32 mpg to a high of 37 - just different days, different minor circumstances - now, IF I had just made some change to the vehicle prior to the high, OR low mpg run, what might my conclusion have been? And how much "value" would any post or printed comments I made in this group be?



It's real easy to see mileage variations of a couple of mpg in seemingly identical driving routes and scenarios - if done as some sort of "TEST" of mpg, how might that falsely color the assumed result?



You can obtain broad generalizations as to mileage figures, and mix in lots of logic, for instance, if a guy with a 3500 4x4 comments on his mileage, it's pretty easy for me to allow for the fact that the 4x4 and heavier 3500 will usually get lower mpg than my 2500 - but any meaningful, credible tests take time and VERY repeatable CONTROLLED conditions MOST of us are not equipped for - so what sort of responses do you really expect from a group such as this - OR a magazine that relies upon those like us for material?

 

[Ncostello]

Test or lab conditions must be exact for each and every test... no variation or the results will be skewed and meaningless in an analytical sense. That is almost impossible with 10,000 different trucks with different drivers in different places. All we can really do is report what happens to our own individual vehicles and others can look for those same results... but results will vary.



I think the hwy mpg's shown on new car stickers are tested under special conditions. Its something like 50mph, windows rolled up, no power accessories at all, and weather conditions must be optimal or consistent. Then they drive for some distance on special designated roadways. At least thats what I have read on the subject. It may be a test standards.



The only data you'll ever get is strictly empirical based upon ones experience and experimentation. Its a tough subject to discuss unless were all on the same playing field. FWIW.

 

[RustyJC]

Originally posted by Ncostello

I think the hwy mpg's shown on new car stickers are tested under special conditions. Its something like 50mph, windows rolled up, no power accessories at all, and weather conditions must be optimal or consistent. Then they drive for some distance on special designated roadways. At least thats what I have read on the subject. It may be a test standards.

Actually, the EPA fuel economy figures are computed from the carefully-controlled dynamometer test cycles from which emissions data is gathered. The actual fuel economy isn't measured - it's "backed into" from computations determining the amount of fuel burned based on the vehicle's total exhaust emissions over the city and highway test cycles.



Rusty

 

[Ncostello]

Thanks RustyJC. I stand corrected. I figured my statement was outdated. Its been a while since I looked up any info on this. I must be thinking old school tests where they actually measured real data results. Either way, it can be very complicated and hard to measure for individuals. Bottom line for me is that I know I can only use the numbers for a purchasing guide... knowing I will never hardly acheive them.

 

[RKrueger]

I do not disagree with those people maintaining that there is a direct correlation between driving habits and mileage, or fuel efficiency. That is an indisputable fact.

But beyond that part of the equation, lies the effect that certain modifications can do for the owner that has shown to improve mileage primarily due to either increasing the fuel efficiency of the powerplant itself, or lowering the friction of any rotating drivetrain components thereby requiring less power to move the truck over the ground.

The only way to provide this information to members is by setting up a dyno to eliminate any "human" interaction that would negate test results "as much as possible". We live in an imperfect world, try as we might, but we can do this effectively enough, IMO, to provide results indicating a "trend" one way or another.

We have to decide on the "Standard" test vehicle, the equipment onboard, whether it is in use or not, RE ratio, etc.

We shouldn't get into non-standard anything, save the equipment we install for the test. After all, we are not looking to provide a member with a "you will get 3mpg more if you use Gadget X". We are trying to take a sensible approach to testing many claims to increased fuel efficiency.

So we set up our dyno with our stock truck, and drive the dyno 500 miles, and check the amount of fuel consumed. ( Give me some slack here, I'm being -very- general for discussion purposes ) Then we install Gadget X properly, drive it again, measure the results. We can program in some hills, make it over flat ground, whatever, it makes no difference. Run the truck at 65 mph, a normal, legal, commonly driven highway speed. Can we increase the mileage by driving slower? Maybe, maybe not, but that's why we're testing.

Test the injectors, test the EZ, test the Fuel additives, test the 4" pipes and low-restriction filters, test a "synthetic" loaded vehicle versus a mineral oil vehicle.

You get the picture I'm sure. This can be a very interesting, informative test, and I'll bet you dollars to donuts it would get the attention of a lot of members, and I'll also wager a lot of "Gadgets" that showed positive results would be purchased by the members, myself included.

On the other side of the coin, TDR members want to be "informed purchasers", anotherwords, not throwing their money into something that will not provide the expected results.

Regarding my original post, many vendors will tell you what they commonly see as reported mileage claims by the purchaser. True enough, probably. But

if I get +2mpg with "X" installed, +3mpg with "Y" installed, and another +2mpg with "Z" installed, will I get approximately 7mpg increase if I install all three? You may, then again, the "trend" may be less because two of those components do not work well together and may be counter-productive. But the tests would provide the kind of information that people could use to make an "informed" purchase if fuel efficiency is their primary goal.

I try to be resonable as well. I'm not purporting that the Bureau of Weights and Measures get involved, nor a group of lab rats ( scientists in white lab coats ) conduct the tests. There is some pretty talented folks out there, many engineers, and some nice test equipment available, that would be more than adequate for this type of testing.

That's how people like Banks, Diesel Dynamics, BD Brake, and a slew of others have developed the "Gadgets" that work as well as they do on your truck. They engineer, they test, they tweak and modify, and test again.



Anyhow, that's how I would start.

 

[LSMITH]

I lost at least 1 MPG when I put in the DD1's and at least . 5 MPG with the EZ. Some guys have gained 2 MPG with the DD1's and 2. 5 with the EZ. My fuel economy is unchanged with DD3's from DD1's, so the heavy foot theory is out seeing how the DD3's will move a LOT more fuel. I sold the EZ and put a VA back on and gained at least 1. 5 MPG WITH the DD3's in. I put a manual transmission uprate ECM on and gained 2 MPG +.



Point of my ramble ^^^^^^ is that each truck is a law unto itself. You cannot make generalizations about fuel economy, it just does not work. Some trucks are turds and no matter how much you polish a turd guess what you have? Some trucks are gems, and a little polish will help, maybe it won't.



The other thing is fuel economy gains DON'T stack, +2 for injectors and +2 for a box makes + 2 total in the real world, not 4 like you would think.

 

[RKrueger]

That produced a smile ;-)

I absolutely concur, fuel mileage claims don't stack, but I'll bet more than a few folks think that they might. Testing produces informed purchasers, once again.

Although each truck has it's own particular characteristics, as you mention, that would only be relevant if the intent would be to provide the user with an actual mileage increase that they would expect to see on their truck. That is not reasonable nor is it the intent of the tests. The object is to test for trends. We would not be testing for Joe Blow's hilly terrain around his house, hauling his concrete blocks in his poorly maintained Cummins that hasn't seen an oil change in 10K miles. The intent is to provide some sort of standard, with only one claim: In our test truck, driven over a combination of programmed terrain features over a distance of X miles, the installation of Gadget X produced a net gain of +3mpg over stock.

A disclaimer must be provided as well.

" These results were produced without human interaction on a test truck that may not be comparably equipped to your own. Powerplant condition, installed equipment, driving habits (keep going) will more than likely produce different results from the ones published here. These results are provided to show a fuel efficiency trend that was attained on a test vehicle and is provided to the consumer so that they may make informed decisions regarding the purchase of Gadget X" ... or something along those lines.

Remember, and this is important, IMO, that any information derived through testing is a win, period. What you have now is a whole bunch of vendors out there making mileage claims for their products, and the members have no technical basis to make an informed decision for themselves. We should provide some level of base information to help in this regard. If you don't, it's the customer paying out the bucks, and not having a shred of information that was derived through technical means, anotherwords, a crap shoot.

We have nothing now, anything we do is a positive step.

 

[thaile]

I agree with almost everyone else who has posted already on this topic with the exception of a very few. It would be practically impossible for a realative mileage gain to be given to any specific product sold. First of all one would have to have say 100 trucks set up exactly the same 2500's, six speeds, HO or regular motor. This basically limits the possibilites because as we all know most of the members to this site all have their trucks set up differently from the factory, and once they get them they seek to have to work and continue to change their trucks. Another factor that would have to enter into this equation would be tire sizes. Most guys that I know have upgraded tires from the ones which came out on these trucks straight out of the factory. If changed very noticeably this can influence fuel mileage. What the trucks are used for. Say one person drives down the highway constantly all day pulling no loads at all. I would expect for them to get higher fuel mileage in some cases. However with a more highly modified truck fuel mileage may drop. Some dodge work trucks run around all day weighing in at around 9-10,000 pds. Believe me when you do this your fuel mileage will definantly drop the average below what the factory states. Even with some modifications made to increase fuel mileage which do on stock trucks. This trucks fuel mileage stayed realtively the same. Then there are always those of us who bomb trucks so that we can use the soot pedal when we need it to drive our trucks everyday. However when we hit the pedal to go we expect that role of black out the pipe and that seat of the pants feel that lets you know why you spent that money.

Oo. Oo. Oo. Oo. Oo. Oo.

So as you can see the only real equation that matters in my opinion or that can be controlled when adding parts to these trucks is the driver and his habits.

 

[BillGotthelf]

If you think the transmission wars produced long posts this one is gonna go long. Rkruger-you've been on this site for 9 months. I think you might have missed a few posts. Thousands of post have started-I tried such and such and I got 2 more miles per gallon. Doesn't mean much to me-everything I have added to any of my trucks has lowered my mileage.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

ALSO, don't overlook the very REAL likelihood, that AFTER doing all that detailed testing and research, and posting TYPICAL expected MPG figures, Joe Leadfoot BUYS your product, goes dragracing, stump-jumping and sledpulling, and gets an entirely DIFFERENT result - THEN spends much of his remaining life calling your customer service reps, bi+ching endlessly about how he was ripped off by false claims, is gonna sue - and then badmouthing your company endlessly in every available medium...



K&N

Banks

BD



To name a few who I think TRY to do a decent job of developing and presenting their products - only to get ripped mercilessly by a vocal few - many of whom had unrealistic expectations, or screwed things up by their own ineptness or outright incompetance...



Far better to loosely generalize, based on reasonable expectations, and not get too specifiic in areas outside predictable parameters or control...

 

[BillGotthelf]

Will wonders never cease? I agree with Gary!!! Oo.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Will wonders never cease? I agree with Gary!!!"



I've been getting WAY too many comments like this lately - a sure sign that either too many are coming around to MY way of thinking, or else *I* am coming around to theirs!



Either one is unacceptable - good thing I'm planning on dropping out in another month or 2 when my membership expires...