The dangers of winter fronts?

[CTD12V]

I know this has been discussed in several threads, but I couldn't find a definitive answer to my three questions, so here goes . . .



I installed a piece of cardboard in front of my A/C cooler as a winter front. It extends from the top body crossmember (where the primary latch for the hood is mounted) down to the bottom of the two cutouts in the bumper (where the fog lights are mounted), and it goes from side to side, just a few inches short of the headlight assemblies on each side. I think this completely covers any area where the fan would be, so the blades should not be traveling through regions of markedly different airflow. So -- do I still need to worry about stress on the fan blades which would normally be caused by having the path of the fan blades partially covered?



Next question: Is it going to damage the fan hub to be totally covered? Keep in mind that this cardboard is several inches away from the fan, since it is in front of everything, including the wire window screen that is supposed to protect the A/C condenser fins from rocks and bugs. I would think this would allow some air to indirectly reach the radiator and the fan hub.



Which leads me to my last question: How much risk am I taking of creating too high of EGTs, since the function of the intercooler is obviously being impaired by blocking most of the airflow through it?



My truck has no power enhancements (yet) and it is very sickly to boot -- I can't even pull my boss's 13k - ish loader/trailer combination at highway speeds. The few times I am towing something more than an empty bumper-pull trailer, it is pulling the 12,500 lb loader, on back roads usually, barely reaching 20mph. If it is snowpacked or icy I am usually in 4LO with chains on, so I am really going slow. I don't have a set of guages yet, but that is hopefully soon going to change. Oh, and temps here around Colorado Springs area can vary greatly--down in the single digits for a few mornings, then in the teens, and the next week they may be around 50 F in the daytime.



Sorry for the long post. I want to be able to get better heat in the cab on cold days and mornings, but I don't want to be damaging things in the process. Thanks for any input you guys might have.



CTD12V

 

[DPellegrin]

I have a pre made winter front with the buttons attached to it and I always keep the hatches open on it. I have been told completely blocking the intercooler is a bad thing. I have quite a bit of open space on mine and it works just fine even at -10* I would cut a big hole in that cardboard about in the middle of the intercooler just my opinion. Also when it reaches 40* I take the winter front completely off.

 

[Schlickenmeyer]

Don't know that I can answer any of your questions, but I can tell you I have

run in MN for years w/o one. I have a short drive to work, about 7 miles and she reaches operating temp on all but the coldest days. I had her apart at 100k and all looked great. I have no worries running w/o one.

 

[BHenn]

CTD12V,



It has been a cold winter in the Springs this year. I have no winter front, but do get hot air from the heater within a few miuntes. Sure does take the truck a while to show any temperature though. I wish you luck and hope that we warm up a bit. I have had just about enough of all this damn snow!!!



Brent

 

[MLee]

winter front

I read in my owners manual that a there should be a 40 square inches of opening in the middle of the radiator. [hub area] If the radiator was to be covered with the winter front. This is so the fan hub won't become damaged, and engage and run all the time. Some take the fan completely off, during the cold spell. Just watch your temp gauge in stop and go traffic.

This is what I have on mine it is about 44 square inch opening. I do have the pieces that will totaly close off the whole front end. Its powder coated and made out of aluminium.

Marv.

Tried to bring picture in thread, to big. go to my readers rig, and look in my readers rig pic's on the bottom you'll see.

 

[DieselDoghouse]

From what I've been told (my 2¢)



1. having the fin area completely capped could over time damage the fan clutch or the fan bearing BECAUSE the stagnant air and heat will engage the clutch (run-warm condition) BUT the fan draws a vacuum.



2. I don't think you could significantly boost your EGT's in this situation because increased EGT's come from overfueling, not warmer intake air. INSTEAD by defeating the intercooler, which is designed to 'densify' the charge air which warmed from compression, you will DROP you boost pressure somewhat.



3. You will likely be disappointed in your defrost function since you are blocking the A/C and keeping it from drying the cab fresh air. That's why ALL cabin air goes through the evaporator even if you then direct it through the heater core to warm it. It could get worse than an igloo. That's where the hemi's got it right - you CAN block off the radiator and leave the laterally adjacent A/C uncovered!!

 

[McLaughlin]

I've had my truck for two years and haven't run a winter front yet.



Are you trying to correct a particular problem or do you just want to have the engine run warmer? Also, how far is your drive to work in the mornings?



My truck used to take 6 or 7 mi to warm up enough to provide warm air (about the time I got to work) on cold mornings regardless of low long I let it idle. The thermostat never moved off the low peg. Installed a new thermostat which helped a lot as the truck warms to about 140 or so (tops out at about 170-180 now on warm days) within about 4 mi (especially if I just leave it in 2nd (it use the back streets so I can only drive 25-30 anyhow and turn the Ebrake on). You might also consider installing a seat heater, doesn't help you hands but can make a early morning trip more enjoyable.



I'm a little surprised your having trouble towing at the speeds/weights you mentioned even if you are running a stock configuration.

 

[Cooker]

IMHO a winter front is a smart thing to add to the truck in the colder months.



FWIW - I seen a few comments from guys with 24v's about how well their trucks heats up without a winter front. The 24v's throw heat much faster than a 12v.



Blocking the intercooler is a good idea because your charge air temps need to be kept up as well in the colder months. The IC will keep combustion temps too cool for optimum combustion in colder temps.



If you are putting cardboard directly in front of the ac condensor two things, one do not use the AC or the defrost positions on the climate controls. The AC works in defrost mode to remove the moisture from the air, not to heat it. The condensor actually serves as a cooler and removes heat from the now warmer air that has been pressurized by the AC compressor, therefore lowering the pressure in the system. If you run the defrost with the AC condensor blocked as tightly as you have it blocked you run the risk of overpressurizing the system.



Second, as already mentioned, since you are putting a covering so closer to the fan/radiator you do need to cut a hole in there over the area of the fan hub itself. A 8"x8" hole will be sufficient.

 

[CTD12V]

Ok, thanks for all the replies guys!



Cooker, I also have noticed that the 24V and 3rd Gen guys seem to get heat a lot quicker. Since my truck is a '98 12V, I have the goofy climate control selectors of the 24Vs and the cold engine of the 12V.



Depending on how cold it is and how long I leave the truck to high idle (about 1000-1200 RPM with the throttle pedal wedged) before I start driving, it usually takes about 4-5 miles for the temp gauge to reach 140. I rarely turn on the vents before then (I do leave the temp selector turned over to the red to allow all the coolant to circulate through the heater core). It is about 16 miles and 28 minutes to work (just east of the corner of Woodmen and Black Forest, for you Springs guys), so I'd say that the engine gets thoroughly warmed up, but even at its warmest, my heat is anemic compared to my boss's 97 Powerstroke (it's the same with my A/C compared to all Fords I ridden in, to).



McLaughlin, other than my marginal cab heat, the main thing I'm trying to address is the time it takes to warm up the engine to normal operating temps. If I have to tow something or put a more than normal load on the engine, I don't want to be starting out before the temp gauge has started to rise, since I've heard that is a good way to blow a head gasket. But I can't just sit for half an hour waiting for my engine to build heat before I move. So I was hoping that a winter front would be a somewhat cheaper way to speed up the process since I don't have the money for an exhaust brake. (And yeah, you're right about it being strange that my truck has problems with those speeds and weights. It is definitely sick, in a more literal sense than Joe Donnelly used the term. Driving mostly empty with no trailer at 75 on I-25, I've dropped to about 13. 4 mpg, and I have 3. 54 gears )



Anyways, I guess by all accounts I need to alter my current cardboard configuration, huh? Would it help much if I fastened the cardboard to the rear of the grille and just had separate pieces blocking the vent cutouts on the bumper? Or would that cause uneven stress on the fan blades? Would that still not be enough ventilation for the fan hub?



Sorry for the rambling post. Thanks for the advice, everyone. Keep it coming!



CTD12V

 

[CTD12V]

Two more things:



Thanks for the pointer to the pic of your cover, MLee. Do you think with it being that far away from the fan that the blades are getting much stress with different areas of airflow? It seems like the airflow would diffuse somewhat as it went through the various layers of fins, but I suppose at 75 mph that still wouldn't be much.



McLaughlin, did you install the new, revised 160 degree T-stat on your truck?



Thanks guys.



CTD12V

 

[Cooker]

When blocking the grill you do not need to be concerned about leaving an opening for the fan. It is far enough away from the fan and there is enough air that comes in though the bumper to remove this concern. This need was primarily for the guys who were blocking their radiators with cardboard directly in front of them.



If you blocked both the grill and the bumper then perhaps I would leave a small opening in the grill inserts.



Keep in mind cardboad can get pretty messy when it gets wet. I don't think I would want it out in front of my engine where it is exposed to the elements.

 

[DMcPherson]

I use the lund covers for my 02 that fit in the grille. the bumber openings are still open so part of the intercooler and condensor are open. my truck warms up and maintains temp much and I havent had a problem yet. This is my second year using them

 

[opjohnny]

I can't find them right now but I thought my instructions to my mopar winter front said not to tow with it on. I will keep looking.

 

[Cooker]

I can't find them right now but I thought my instructions to my mopar winter front said not to tow with it on. I will keep looking.

FWIW - I have towed without a fan on the truck and the winter fronts on. If the air temp is cool enough it is not a problem.

 

[steved]

I use the lund covers for my 02 that fit in the grille. the bumber openings are still open so part of the intercooler and condensor are open. my truck warms up and maintains temp much and I havent had a problem yet. This is my second year using them

Same here... just put them on my 04. 5 because it was taking over 10 miles to actually get appreciable heat, even after being plugged in. I can atest to the fact that running them improves cold weather fuel mileage.



I thought it was the other way around, the 12 valves heated up quicker and the 24-valves have issues with varnish forming on the valves because the heads run too cool????



steved

 

[WDixon27]

if i don't cover my 12v i don't get squat for heat till i've run several miles of interstate on the way to work, we don't get all that cold here in loserana but it's usually real humid so our upper 20s lower 30s feel much worse (i don't remember being as cut by the cold in upstate new york) i drop this plexiglass sheet

#ad


in the slot between the intercooler and radiator where it's trapped

 

[MLee]

The grill cover is far enough away from the rad. that it doesn't cause any stress on the fan, cause they just free wheel anyway.

Where I read the opening size was with the Mopar cover. with the zipper. It stated to always have a open space in the cover to prevent a possible problem with over heating.

On that t-state replacement to the 160* that is not advised, you want the heat in a diesel engine for the efficentcy, and economy. They like heat to work there best, but don't over do it. The 190-195 is recommended year round. And don't remove it either.

The over-the-road trucks use the same statagy in the center of the grill with there covers when used. Some have the thermal vanes that open and shut automatically to keep the heat in. They all pretty much have the electric fan now to.

Just not a good idea to totaly block it.

Do a little research and read a lot to gain the much needed knowledge.

just my penny's worth.

Marv.

 

[CTD12V]

Thanks guys. I think I will move the cardboard to the back of the grille, and maybe block the bumper cutouts. I painted the cardboard with black exterior spray paint, so hopefully it won't disintegrate with moisture.



I don't remember what T-stats came stock in the 12valves. Was it the 190 one that was supposed to be the better, revised one?



Thanks,



CTD12V

 

[willysrule]

I bought my grille covers from a guy on here, he was in the classified add section... they were pre-cut black plexi-glass and had all the hardware to instal them... I put them on below 40* and don't take them off till it gets warmer than 40*... I've ran them for two years now, my truck comes up to running temp alot faster now... I've towed heavy with them in place, temp gauge never went above normal temp... I would recomend them to anyone...



The guy has adds on here time to time, in the "TDR Member Basement Enterprises" section... his name is Eric Buckel and his number is 801-965-6358

 

[Tomscreek]

I've used Eric's grill covers also. Must be about the fourth or fifth winter and no problems, they work good.