thinking about driveline damper

[Mhannink]

as some of you may have seen already, i am among many things, working on our 06 ram 3500 4x4 dually g56 standard cab long box. in one of my posts i asked if these trucks have a damper on them, turns out it never had one. my question is what would it take to put one on? it is my understanding that some of the older trucks had one. is it possible to order an output shaft with damper and install it on our truck without any problems? what do you guys think?

 

[AH64ID]

I would ask a local driveline shop if they can install one for you.

 

[cerberusiam]

None of the 1 piece or 2 piece drive lines for the manual trans from Dodge indicate the damper is available or needed. Maybe they figured the DMF was adequate for damping harmonics. That would explain why the autos had them and manuals didn't.



Since the t-case is a slip yoke connection you could probably swap one from an auto to it. Not sure its needed though as most people are ordering the 1 pieces drive shafts for the auto without the damper. I think without that center support in there its probably not needed.



However, due to the torsional harmonics the ISB generates it might be a good idea to have one for limiting and canceling vibrations for a better experience. I want to say that is probably the biggest reason for using the damper.

 

[ENafziger]

Vibration damping is a complicated animal. I can't even begin to remember all the equations from undergrad engineering, but it's pretty involved. If the rotating mass, harmonics, vibrations, etc were all similar enough, you might be able to get away with pulling one off of an automatic. However, just adding mass isn't always beneficial, and sometimes it makes things worse.

Have you decided against the balancemasters? I put one on my front driveshaft, but never saw the need to on my rear. I had to carefully cut the rubber, open it up to slip around the shaft, and superglue back together again to install. I think they're good products that actually work. However, I presume they do more for active balancing than for harmonic cancelation removing certain resonances.

--Eric

 

[steved]

None of the 1 piece or 2 piece drive lines for the manual trans from Dodge indicate the damper is available or needed. Maybe they figured the DMF was adequate for damping harmonics. That would explain why the autos had them and manuals didn't.

Then explain why my 04. 5 with the NV5600 has one? Been there since day one... I can take pictures if there's any doubt!

On edit, I see you indicated a DMF, so that applies only to the later trucks... but they did come on the manuals early on.

 

[AH64ID]

Then explain why my 04. 5 with the NV5600 has one? Been there since day one... I can take pictures if there's any doubt!



On edit, I see you indicated a DMF, so that applies only to the later trucks... but they did come on the manuals early on.

I found a pic of mine.



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[Mhannink]

None of the 1 piece or 2 piece drive lines for the manual trans from Dodge indicate the damper is available or needed. Maybe they figured the DMF was adequate for damping harmonics. That would explain why the autos had them and manuals didn't.



Since the t-case is a slip yoke connection you could probably swap one from an auto to it. Not sure its needed though as most people are ordering the 1 pieces drive shafts for the auto without the damper. I think without that center support in there its probably not needed.



However, due to the torsional harmonics the ISB generates it might be a good idea to have one for limiting and canceling vibrations for a better experience. I want to say that is probably the biggest reason for using the damper.

i sure they firgured the dmf was good enough, with it removed im thinking something else would be a good subsitute. are the auto drivelines the same size, same u-joint? i know the older second gens there were a lot of differences depending on specs

Vibration damping is a complicated animal. I can't even begin to remember all the equations from undergrad engineering, but it's pretty involved. If the rotating mass, harmonics, vibrations, etc were all similar enough, you might be able to get away with pulling one off of an automatic. However, just adding mass isn't always beneficial, and sometimes it makes things worse.



Have you decided against the balancemasters? I put one on my front driveshaft, but never saw the need to on my rear. I had to carefully cut the rubber, open it up to slip around the shaft, and superglue back together again to install. I think they're good products that actually work. However, I presume they do more for active balancing than for harmonic cancelation removing certain resonances.



--Eric

here is my plan, its sort of a shotgun approach, im hitting all my bases. i ordered a fluidamper for the truck, balance masters wheel balancers, i will be ordering driveline balancers as soon as the truck gets back and i can measure the drive shafts, and i also ordered the tork shield girdle. balancers and dampers do two different things, so both together is often a good thing, so i want to install a damper as well, to absorb any harmonics that might shock load the trans.



your right about the balancers, they only balance, they dont absorb the torsional loads/harmonics/vibrations. thats where a damper comes in.



i found a stock damper/output shaft for the truck on quad 4x4, they say it is the factory setup for 2003 and newer, im guessing based on everyone's comments that its probably for the nv5600. my main concern is the u-joint size. also the damper looks like a viscous style to me, can anyone comment as to whether thats true or not. this would be the ideal in my mind.

 

[cerberusiam]

On edit, I see you indicated a DMF, so that applies only to the later trucks... but they did come on the manuals early on.

I found a pic of mine.

Exactly, the older manuals and autos had them but the DMF trucks did not. I was just addressing the 06 the OP was referencing.

i sure they firgured the dmf was good enough, with it removed im thinking something else would be a good subsitute. are the auto drivelines the same size, same u-joint?

Not positive but on further reflection I think the ujoints are different between the autos and the manuals. Without the DMF there I am thinking a damper is a good idea.

 

[Mhannink]

quad 4x4 has the one listed for 03 and up manuals, im thinking that should work fine. they are supposed to call me at some point so i can discuss its use in this application.



i am thinking a damper is definately a good idea, i would even go so far as to say that with the dmf it would be a good thing.

 

[mini14]

the ujoints on the manual trannys driveshaft are larger

 

[Mhannink]

mini14, i agree with you, quad4x4 says the part im looking at is for manual trans, did dodge change the u-joints used behind the nv5600 and the g56?

 

[Mhannink]

Heard back from quad 4x4 they don't have that part any more only the one without the damper, anyone know of another source to maybe get one?

 

[steved]

I would think any good driveshaft shop should be able to obtain a damper? Have you tried local or some of the bigger offroad driveline companies?

 

[Mhannink]

No not yet but im thinking that's the next thing. Im really wanting one on the truck, I think it'll help a lot.

 

[seafish]

I think that it it is a good idea also, particularly with the DMF removed like you point out.

Do you know yet if the one from the NV5600 will fit another 3rd gen with the G56??

How do they actually mount on the driveshaft??

 

[EDankievitch]

I think Balance masters or Centramatic offers a damper device for our drive shafts.

 

[Mhannink]

I think that it it is a good idea also, particularly with the DMF removed like you point out.



Do you know yet if the one from the NV5600 will fit another 3rd gen with the G56??



How do they actually mount on the driveshaft??

they are built into the output shaft of the trans, other than that they look and work like an engine damper. as mentioned above, quad 4x4 have them on the website for 2003 and newer trucks with manual trans, however they can no longer get them. so i looking around for another source, i will let everyone know what i find for those that might like one on their trucks. i honestly think it would be a good thing for any truck, a damper on the engine and driveline collectively will take out a lot of the harmonics in the engine, trans, driveline, axels, and tires. it would make for a much smoother ride ride and longer lasting parts. probably why they dont put them on too many trucks.



im guessing there is no market for something like this, i would love to see a nice viscous damper available for the driveline, alas i have not found any performance manufacturers producing one. i suspect it is cause it doesnt make you go any faster, just last longer.

I think Balance masters or Centramatic offers a damper device for our drive shafts.

i think you are getting balancer and damper crossed up. the reference to the unit on the front of your crank shaft as a balancer is a misnomer. it is a damper, which performs a whole different function than a balancer.



the damper can be either rubber or viscous fluid, its purpose is to absorb fluxuations in axial twist. the example fluid damper and many others provide is pretty good. on the engine, when a cylinder fires it accelerates past its normal postion in relation to the other cylinders. basically it is advancing ahead of the rest of the crank, the same sort of situation is created when the cylinder changes direction, that is it switches from going down to going up. here the crank twists backwards, the cylinder laggs behind the rest of the crank. without a damper the crank would snap seconds after starting the engine, due to this violant twisting. the damper absorbs all of this and keeps it from happening, at least to some degree. it has to do with the laws of inertia, when the crank tries to accelerate it has to accelerate the damper as well, the mass of the damper slows this down and keeps the crank inline. same goes for the backwards twist when the cylinder switches direction. the crank has to slow the damper, again the mass of the damper keeps the crank from doing this. that keeps the crank from snapping, and the engine running smoother.



a balancer such as balance masters or centermatics, only balances the components. since they use a material that can move inside a tube the weight of the liquid can instantly offset any out of balance part. since its laws of physics that dictate how it works, it will balance perfectly and continueously as long as the part is spinning. centrifigual force increases the weight of the balance material, so no matter how fast the object is spinning it is perfectly balanced, provided you start with enough weight.



i have already ordered wheel and driveline balancers for the truck as well as a fluidamper for the engine. however i would like a driveline damper as well, i would also kill for a balance masters engine balancer too. i wish they made one for our trucks.

 

[joshs93ctd]

I am taking mine out the whole shaft and replacing with an aluminum from drive shaft speciality I found that my carrier brg and yoke is bad (has the damper) it is grooved where the seal rides on so it blows fluid out of my tcase I don't see where a good balanced shaft wouldn't take care of your problem cause you will still have a hard mount I could see it helping if it had some rubber type of mount to take shock or vibrations out and I had tried quad 4x4 and they were no help for technical help the guy that did all there tech notes retired and the economy forced them to get rid of others that knew anything just my experience with them