Thinking of buying a 3rd gen. lot's of ??'s

[ScottWright]

Hey guys,

I'm thinking of stepping up my 2nd gen to buy a 4 x 4 3rd gen. Although I know quite a bit about 2nd gen stuff, I know very little about 3rd gen trucks.



First off let me tell you that I"m looking for a 3rd gen quad cab 4 x 4, manual shift, short bed. 2500. Probably the most desirable combo's out of all trucks if I had to bet. I don't want to go the automatic route. Too expensive to make live with a bunch of power.



I am thinking that I"d like something in the 400~500hp range. This is not a race truck by any means. I just want something reliable, that when I want to get on it, that it pulls decent. My 2nd gen. I have right now is in the ~430hp range, so I'm looking for something simular. (of course a little more )



My question is, how do I acomplish this goal. Is any year truck better/worse then another. Obviously the newer trucks have a higher factory rating, but honstly if I'm going to BOMB it, then does it really matter what I start with? how much power will a factory turbo make on a 3rd gen. ? My 2nd gen still has a stock hx-35 with a 16cm swap and it seems to hold up fine (280k miles!)



How about BOMBing? I've heard that these trucks dont' react as well to injectors like a 2nd gen. did. (which is good because they are a fortune for these common rail trucks!) Will a pressure box/timing/fuel box make 400hp+ without any other mods? Or am I swapping turbos at that point? Obviously a clutch is gonna be needed at that power level. But what does it take to get there?



I'd like to pick up a '03 truck, just because of cost. But if there is reason to go with a newer model, then I'll just have to bite the bullet and go for it.



By the way, is there any huge problems that these 3rd gen trucks are seeing? I won't buy another POS vp44 powered truck again, but if the 3rd gen. trucks are having some big parts failures, I'd like to know what I"m getting into.



Thanks in advance for your help guys!



Scott

 

[RVTRKN]

The truck your looking for is hard to find due to man trans except maybe with a G56 latter 05 which will probably have a warranty in which you will lose the warranty if you bomb. I find the stock HP more than enough in my 04. 5 and don't recommend the purchase of a bombed truck unless you run the VIN with Dodge to see if warranty is voided even if it is beyond the warranty which will indicate engine problems.

 

[ScottWright]

Yeah, I don't expect Dodge to cover warrantee issues due to my BOMBing, but I also don't expect stock HP levels to satisfy me either. Hard to go back to 300hp when you've been over 400hp for so long! I'm surprised I haven't gotten more feedback. Come on 3rd gen. guys convince me I need to spend 30k. . . lol

 

[CMusgrove]

My only response would be that if you've been a member since 6/03 you should pretty well know the answers to most of your questions already.

 

[ScottWright]

If I have a 2nd gen truck, how would I know what turbo/fuel boxes ect. . . work on a 3rd gen? They are a totally different animal when it comes to BOMBing.



Thanks for being so helfpul. But, maybe you should stick to answering questions about "color matched speedliner's" . . .

 

[osiris]

well the new smarty will be out soon supposed to be pretty good... most of the performance chips or downloaders by themselves will get you too around 400 HP or more. you could go with the bullydog downloader, TST, edge juice or hot juice... seems that there is almost an unlimited amount of things you can do to these new HPCR engines Good Luck

 

[JRD]

I agree with the Smarty (when it comes out) or a TST. Or if money allows it... BOTH! Ask Tomeygun or CamoTanker over at DieselTruckResource, both guys had trucks start life with the SO motor not the HO's and push more power than most of us HO guys. These trucks are great because alot of your power is at the the flick of a switch. If you want to tame it down, turn it down... Want to go fast... dial it up! Mileage in these turcks doesnt seem to be up to snuff with you 2nd Gen guys, but if your looking for over 400HP, something tells me MPG is not your number priority. Another thing, these trucks (IN MY OPINION) sound waaayyyy less desirable than a 2nd Gen straight piped. But other than that. The 3rd Gens are becoming more and more popular in the quest for horsepower as finally companies are figuring these things out, Boxes, injectors, CP3's!,etc. Anyway hope this helps...

 

[ScottWright]

Thanks for the reply's guys! So what exactly does the TST box do? Timing/pressure/injector pulse? I have a drag comp now, so I'd agree the ability to turn it up and down really works great. Is there anything physically different to an HO motor over a SO motor? I know at least the 2nd gen trucks have more compression ratio on an HO (which seems to be bad for BOMBing). Is there a difference in turbo from year to year, trans to trans, or SO vs. HO? . . .

 

[me4osu]

My only response would be that if you've been a member since 6/03 you should pretty well know the answers to most of your questions already.

I've been here even longer, but I don't know squat about the 3rd gens. Also, I haven't paid much attention to the forum until now, because I can get the wife in a new 2500 HPCR and pay most of the note with the difference in fuel costs.



Just like Scott, I am looking at buying a 3rd and trying to educate myself. Let's hear the good AND THE BAD. I can take it; I have 265,000 mi on my 98. 5. Been there, done that and bought the T-shirt.

 

[mberry]

If I were to do it over again, I would go with the 03/04 305HP engine truck. It can be made to perform as well as any other 3rd gen with the same mods. The TST does timing and duration only. I have read of too many problems with pressure boxes to use one and that is only my opinion. Upgrade the fuel system to the CP3 with a FASS or some other high quality product and that should be good. The stock turbo on the 3rd Gen's I think makes roughly 25-50HP over stock before it's out of it's efficiency map.



I can't answer much more than that, but either the NV5600 or the G56 appear to be a good strong transmission. Compression ratio's are also the same if I remember right. The 3rd Gen's also have about a 100 degree higher tolerance for EGT's due to the better valve alloys and other changes.



The good:



Better brakes, steering, stock power, visibility, navigation system, quieter, much better ride, easier to BOMB etc...



The bad: The usual thin sheetmetal, thin paint, no front axle disconnect, easier to detect BOMB's by dealer.



There are more to both good and bad but the list would take way too long to type. I definitely prefer my 3rd Gen over my 2nd Gen just on the ride alone. I don't think I would go back to a 2nd Gen unless it only has 12 valves.



Hope this helps.

 

[LAMiller]

My brother's 03 (early 03 250hp) made 460hp 1088tq with a tst stacked with an ez, stock turbo and DTT Tryns and runs 13. 6's.

All I know is that this truck responded huge to just a box and he has stock fuel system everything but it makes really fun power!

 

[CMusgrove]

Sorry about the reply the other day. If you have not tried the search feature in the forum you might like it. At the top of the page is a tab "Discussion Forums" Then under that, one of the choices is "Search Forums". When that opens up, on the left side in the "Search Key Word" you can type in "bombing" and then on the right side highlight "3rd Generation Engine & Transmission" Click on the "Search Now" button at the bottom of the page. Your thread currently shows as the first of 280 threads on the subject. A large variety of info and maybe some of it will help you out. I do the search option quite a bit.

 

[lcaad1249]

When I started bombing my 04. 5 auto, I added a Juice/Attitude (Regular version) stacked with an EX, a FASS Pump, an AFE Stage 1 intake, and straight piped. This dynoed me at 436 RWHP and can for the most part just be unplugged to go back to stock so I was happy. In the quest for more power I've since upgraded to a Stage 2 AFE intake. I've also got an II SPS 62 currently in the mail. I've also been looking into the Goerend automatic transmission. I know you said a manual is a lot cheaper to be able to bomb but you might check into a Goerend transmission as it is a lot cheaper that I though you could get one and an awesome warranty to boot. I'm not sure where exactly in the horsepower range I will be with this setup but I'm guessing around 525 which is good enough for now. Keep the questions coming and I'll help if I can.

 

[JRD]

A tad more info on these trucks. The older engines have different injector tips. The piston dish has changed slightly between now and 03, not to mention some minor ECM tweaking from the factory to obtain different HP/TQ levels. And if I remeber correctly starting in 04. 5 the 3rd Gens came with the HY35 turbo, where the 03-04's had HX35's??? My knowledge on the 03-04 trucks is limited as I have only really cared about the 05-06's since those are the rucks that I have owned. The 04. 5 and up trucks have an extra injection pulse to help keep the cat hot for emissions.



03 SO-250HP, 460TQ

03 HO-305HP, 555TQ

04 HO-305HP, 555TQ

04. 5 HO 325HP, 600TQ

05-06 HO 325HP, 610TQ



SO's became extinct in 03 and only HO's were produced from then until now.



Pressure boxes in my opinion are a big NO NO on these trucks if you plan on keeping it awhile as they thrash injector tips from what Ive heard from various companies that do injector work on these HPCR's.



Additives such as PowerService and Stanadyne are not recommended in the manual, but myself and many others feel that the extra lubricity cant hurt anything.



Some people on this board are running their HPCR on B100 with no ill affects that I have seen. I have not personally run Bio in my truck but probably wouldnt run more than B20 just because thats how I feel.



Exhaust. If you own an 04. 5 then you have 4" all the way back. If you have an 03-04, then you have 3. 5" to the muffler, then 4" out. The cat seems to be less restrictive than the muffler in these things.



The SO's have a upper bearing saddle based piston cooling nozzles. Where the HO's have it located in a different place (but I forget where, sorry)







I think Im somewhat giving you some half correct info here... Hope this helped you a little.

 

[ScottWright]

So if I plan on boming to the 400~500hp level, should I stay away from the '03 SO? I've also heard bad things about pressure boxes, so I'm glad to hear good power can be made without the increased pressure. Sounds like the stock exhaust is pretty good no matter what year 3rd gen it is.



Thanks for the replies. As I get closer to buying the truck and bombing, I can search for a few more specific details about it. Thanks for the general info. This is exactly what I was looking for.

 

[JRD]

An 03 SO is JUST as capable of obtaining high HP/TQ figures than an HO motor. Just because an HO has a higher factory rating doesnt mean it will always be that much higher than the SO's output.

 

[AKaiser]

Look on autotrader.com

You should be able to find a few 03-early 04 trucks just like you want. You may have to drive/fly a distance, but they are out there. I'm looking at them now, as I don't want to spend $$$ on a brand-new truck that I can't touch (warranty issues).