Thud when braking

[bigflatdaddy]

At 140,000 miles, I just started having an issue with a slight 'thud' under heavy braking, that can be heard and felt through the brake pedal and steering wheel.



New Goerend transmission (awesome!), all u-joints in the rear drive shaft are new. Front drive shaft u-joints will be replaced next weekend, although I don't think this would cause the thud.



When the truck is parked, engine off, and emergency brake on - I'm surprised at the amount of twist that I can put on the drive shaft into the differential. Maybe due to differential gear-wear? If so, is there a high-performance replacement for the gearing and bearings inside the diff?



Any thoughts appreciated.

 

[AEdelheit]

Well since you can feel it in the steering wheel that would indicate something in the front end, First place to look would be the front brakes, I would pull the tires off and closely inspect the brakes, if the steering wheel shakes could be a warped rotor.

 

[p-Bar]

Control arm bushings?

 

[mwilson]

I've seen a bad lower ball joint do that very thing.



I am assuming that it only "Thuds" once with the heavy brake application???



Just something to check.



Mike.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Ball joints, track bar, dead body in the back. Check for those first. Does it do it in straight stops? In straight stopping the track bar "shouldn't" thud, but in any kind of turn it will if bad. Had one that was popping when you'd turn sharp; sounded like the frame was breaking..... If you don't have the body rolled up properly in a good comforter or pallet wrap, they'll make thudding noises when they come to the front of the bed.....

 

[bigflatdaddy]

Ball joints may be the cause. I had the truck back at the dealer last week to have the passenger front axle joint replaced. I also asked them to check the ball joints and they were "within specification. " Last nite I jacked up the truck and both front wheels can be wobbled enough to hear the play in the joints. I'm getting sick and tired of this crap with this truck. It's a cummins engine dropped in a POS and the dealer is FOS.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Ball joints may be the cause. I had the truck back at the dealer last week to have the passenger front axle joint replaced. I also asked them to check the ball joints and they were "within specification. " Last nite I jacked up the truck and both front wheels can be wobbled enough to hear the play in the joints. I'm getting sick and tired of this crap with this truck. It's a cummins engine dropped in a POS and the dealer is FOS.

. . then it's probably the ball joints. Most dealers are a joke. Most just want to sell you a new truck, and can even be deceptive about it. I'd suggest finding a good repair shop that can do front end alignments every time over a dealer. Cheaper, better, and more likely to fix it right the first time. Unfortunately, a new truck will have MORE problems once it gets out of warranty, so I'd not send your's to the recycler just yet. Check the forum here, and on other "brand X" forums, and you'll see the same problems. And on a new one, not only do you get worse mileage, you have to pour "Diesel Exhaust Fluid" in it. They're kidding right? Burn more fuel to produce less emissions... WTH???!?!?!?



Sorry, off subject, there. Also, a lot of people hate the aftermarket parts, but some are the same quality as factory; take that however you want. The replacements will probably only last a little longer than the factory, unless you go with Carli's... . but only do that if you're gonna keep the truck and double you're current mileage, IMO.



Also, check your wheel bearings, aka, "unitized bearing", aka, "POS". If the ball joints are still good, and the bearing is out, it will allow the wheel to move on a jack, acting similar to a failed ball joint.



Good luck.

 

[Cosmo]

Most dealers are a joke. Most just want to sell you a new truck,

You know what doesn't make sense about that?





I'm a Subaru mechanic, and believe me there are times when I'd rather people NOT put thousands of dollars into their cars, but they do it anyway. The service department definitely does NOT want to sell you a new truck - we don't make any money if you buy a new truck.

 

[Sandflea]

It's a long shot, but I had a problem similar to what you describe that ended up being a loose spare tire. It only thudded when applying the brakes. After tightening it back up all the way, the thudding stopped.

 

[HHhuntitall]

You know what doesn't make sense about that?





I'm a Subaru mechanic, and believe me there are times when I'd rather people NOT put thousands of dollars into their cars, but they do it anyway. The service department definitely does NOT want to sell you a new truck - we don't make any money if you buy a new truck.

Sure you do... oil changes, regular brake checks, changing the transmission fluid even though I told them not to... . they make lots of money. Service writer makes it so confusing you have to tear the car in half to figure out what's wrong with it.

 

[Cosmo]

No, re-read what I said.


Since I work for a Subaru dealer, I'll use that for reference.

Say you've got a 2002 Outback with 87k on the clock and you bring it in for an oil change. Upon inspection, we note that the head gaskets are leaking and since the timing belt has to come off to fix that, and the belt is due at 105k anyway, you might as well do both now. Parts and labor on the job comes out to somewhere around $2200, add another several hundred for the 90k service we might as well do while we're in there, or CV axle with a torn boot, or whatever. Your car is worth about $7k. Do you want to dump the money in to a 9 year old car? How about trading it in on a newer, roomier, more fuel efficient Outback? $2200 makes a nice down payment... .

You trade it in, we lose out on a $50 oil change and the $2200+ maintenance.

Sales makes money, we don't.

Sure, you'll be back in a few months for another oil change, but that's $50(ish). Sales will have us inspect the car, we'll tell them it needs $2200+ in repairs, and they'll send it off to auction. We still don't make money off it, more than maybe the oil change and a used car inspection.


We would MUCH rather have you keep your old car, put $3k into it now, then $5k down the road when you have a catastrophic transmission problem, then ... ... .

Oil changes and tire rotations keep us busy, major services and repairs make us money. You buying a new car means more oil changes, less major service - unless you happen to sell your car to someone else who is willing to bring their car to us.



Now, as far as your service writer is concerned... check your state laws. I know in WA, if the repair was over about $500, the shop was required by law to give you a written estimate. If they performed services without authorization, you aren't obligated to pay for them.

Service writers are generally commission based, sometimes you need to fire your advisor if you don't feel comfortable working with one. There are some that don't push whereas others are horribly pushy.

 

[HHhuntitall]

I guess by WE, you mean the service department. Let's look at all the numbers, not just yours.



New truck, $45,000(2011 Ram 2500 ST For Sale | Gainesville TX . ), 20% profit on truck=$9,000 (given the overhead costs are passed on to the customer)



Head gasket replacement on a 6. 7L Dodge Cummins w/reman head, $3,580 minus employee labor rate $18hr, at 8 hours labor, $144=$3,436 minus the cost of head @ $2,500= $936+profit on cylinder head of 20%, $416=$1352 profit on work (given shop costs are passed on to customer, electricity, tool wear, uniform cleaning, work station supplies, shop manager salary, service donkey pension, etc. ) This profit is an all day job, provided all the parts are in inventory and no nuts twist off. Some would milk it for a day and a half, with the station prep and clean up, test drives, paperwork, etc.



Now, $1352 is not a bad profit for a day. I like it. But the salesman, who didn't come into work until 8am, made the company $9,000 before lunch, and he didn't even break a sweat or loosen his tie. He'll try like heck to do it again after lunch, maybe twice, and be home by 6pm. While you are a profit machine for your Subaru dealer, like I was for a Ford dealer, you still don't make as much as the guys up front selling new trucks. I think the dealer likes to sell you new trucks. I'm not gonna change my mind on that one.



I was ASE certifed Master Medium/Heavy Vehicle Technicians for most classes available in ASE, including most of the A, T, E, S, H, M, L1, L2 Series tests. Granted they are only written tests, and I know a lot of guys that have the piece of paper that can't find a knock with a hammer, but I think it makes my point.



As for the service donkey, yeah, some state laws allow you to come back on the dealer on work performed without authorization. It's also a PITA, and the legal costs are more than what the service costs are. Do I want to pay the $578, or do I spend $1500+ on a lawyer and a waste of three days of my life? If I just walk and don't pay the tab, it's called a mechanics lien... since it's a Jeep, I might be better off that route. I think there's a simple solution, I'll just pay it and not go back. The only reason I took it in to begin with is it's a Mercedes transmission and I don't have the time or tools to fix a simple oil leak on top of the transmission..... Where's that hammer?!?!?

 

[Cosmo]

So you know then that sales and service might as well work for different companies.

Service and sales do not share profits. When we get a head gasket job in, if they decide to decline and buy a vehicle instead, it makes zero difference if they buy from our shop or if they go down the road to some other dealership.

So when you say "most dealers are a joke, they just want to sell you a new truck", it would be totally accurate if you're speaking solely of the sales department. But of course, that's their job. If you're talking about the service department who you think doesn't want to fix your Jeep, well, you might be delusional. Or, perhaps, you've got the worst dealership in history.

FYI, that trans is nothing to be afraid of. I rebuilt the 68rfe at work in my free time.

 

[HHhuntitall]

So you know then that sales and service might as well work for different companies.



Service and sales do not share profits. When we get a head gasket job in, if they decide to decline and buy a vehicle instead, it makes zero difference if they buy from our shop or if they go down the road to some other dealership.



So when you say "most dealers are a joke, they just want to sell you a new truck", it would be totally accurate if you're speaking solely of the sales department. But of course, that's their job. If you're talking about the service department who you think doesn't want to fix your Jeep, well, you might be delusional. Or, perhaps, you've got the worst dealership in history.



FYI, that trans is nothing to be afraid of. I rebuilt the 68rfe at work in my free time.

Touche, and point taken, but I hardly feel delusional. I never said they didn't want to fix it, I just said they did work that wasn't asked for. I also said service makes money; good money, especially for a day's wages. I only stated that the service department deosn't make money as fast or as easy as the sales, thus enforcing my opinion that dealers would rather sell you a new car than repair old ones. I'm also of the opinion that many dealers don't invest as much effort in their repair shops as they do their sales. That hurts their abilities to attract good techs and keep them, which hurts their overall service reputation, which is a downward spiral... . One of the main reasons individually owned independent shops can be, and are, successfull business ventures.



As far as the Jeep fiasco, that was one individual reflecting badly on his company. It wasn't that they didn't want to fix it, it was that they performed work I didn't ask for. They performed a 16 point inspection and repaired anything they deemed necessary, such as brake pads w/rotors, windshield wipers, tire rotation, rear fluid change..... all I had asked for was for them to change the transmission fluid and filter and fix the leak while at it. I complained, but there was no way to get the Jeep that day, which is my wife's DD for the kids, unless I paid the tab. I filed a complaint with the BBB, who wasn't surprised to hear from me, suggesting that maybe they actually are the worst dealer on the planet. But that is only one particular incident of many bad experiences with dealers, and I am not alone. Again, another reason for the existence of independent shops.



As for the transmission, no, I don't think anything mechanical is to be feared. But to do it properly, specific tools are needed to prevent damage from dissasembly or during reassembly. Those tools I don't have, didn't care to buy for a single vehicle, and don't want to have to use. That's what the dealer is SUPPOSED to be for... .

 

[bigflatdaddy]

Sooooooooooo... ... ... I'm down here shaking the life out of the wheels and cannot tell if the wheel bearings are loose/bad or if it's the ball joints. Q1 - Is there a fool-proof way to tell the difference (when you are the person shaking and watching for play)? Q2 - If bearings, is there only 1 set that is mounted in the hub (i. e. if I replace the hub, is the bearing included)?

 

[HHhuntitall]

Sorry. You really need a helper, or if you're pretty stout, you can shake the wheel from under, inside. If it's the ball joint, you can visibly see it moving. If it's the wheel bearing, the spindle assembly won't be moving, but the wheel still will be. A helper is nice if you can find one..... The factory wheel bearing is unitized, meaning it's one assembly. But if you have to replace it, I'd suggest filling it with quality, aftermarket, high-temp grease through the ABS sensor. It's not easily serviced, as it's a pressed together assembly, with plastic races that disentegrate when dissasembled... .

 

[bigflatdaddy]

got my kids to push on wheels... definitely the "within spec" ball joints. ordered a set of Carli joints. If anybody needs a full set for an 03-11 - check with diesel performance products. they had one set left after mine... .

 

[Cosmo]

Touche, and point taken, but I hardly feel delusional. I never said they didn't want to fix it, I just said they did work that wasn't asked for. I also said service makes money; good money, especially for a day's wages. I only stated that the service department deosn't make money as fast or as easy as the sales, thus enforcing my opinion that dealers would rather sell you a new car than repair old ones. I'm also of the opinion that many dealers don't invest as much effort in their repair shops as they do their sales. That hurts their abilities to attract good techs and keep them, which hurts their overall service reputation, which is a downward spiral... . One of the main reasons individually owned independent shops can be, and are, successfull business ventures.



As far as the Jeep fiasco, that was one individual reflecting badly on his company. It wasn't that they didn't want to fix it, it was that they performed work I didn't ask for. They performed a 16 point inspection and repaired anything they deemed necessary, such as brake pads w/rotors, windshield wipers, tire rotation, rear fluid change..... all I had asked for was for them to change the transmission fluid and filter and fix the leak while at it. I complained, but there was no way to get the Jeep that day, which is my wife's DD for the kids, unless I paid the tab. I filed a complaint with the BBB, who wasn't surprised to hear from me, suggesting that maybe they actually are the worst dealer on the planet. But that is only one particular incident of many bad experiences with dealers, and I am not alone. Again, another reason for the existence of independent shops.



As for the transmission, no, I don't think anything mechanical is to be feared. But to do it properly, specific tools are needed to prevent damage from dissasembly or during reassembly. Those tools I don't have, didn't care to buy for a single vehicle, and don't want to have to use. That's what the dealer is SUPPOSED to be for... .

Going back to the 2011 truck you posted a link to - in this day and age you would have to be a major jackass to pay MSRP (or more) for ANY mass produced vehicle.



The MSRP on that truck is about $45k, the dealer invoice price is about $41k, and with a holdback of 2-3% (typical), let's say 2. 5%, the dealer is actually paying about $40k for the truck. Where are you getting 20% markup? Even if a person pays full sticker price, the dealer is only "making" $5k on the sale. About $1100 of that $5k they get back at the end of the quarter/year, so they don't see that profit right away.



Furthermore, it only takes about 5 minutes to go online and price a vehicle with options in order to see what the dealership is paying for a car/truck. Knowing that the invoice cost on that 2011 is $41k, I could walk into that dealership and buy the truck for $500-1000 over that cost, for a total profit for the dealership of about $2000. The dealership has to pay salaries, commissions, and overhead out of that profit.



I'm just not seeing where you come up with 20% markup.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Going back to the 2011 truck you posted a link to - in this day and age you would have to be a major jackass to pay MSRP (or more) for ANY mass produced vehicle.



The MSRP on that truck is about $45k, the dealer invoice price is about $41k, and with a holdback of 2-3% (typical), let's say 2. 5%, the dealer is actually paying about $40k for the truck. Where are you getting 20% markup? Even if a person pays full sticker price, the dealer is only "making" $5k on the sale. About $1100 of that $5k they get back at the end of the quarter/year, so they don't see that profit right away.



Furthermore, it only takes about 5 minutes to go online and price a vehicle with options in order to see what the dealership is paying for a car/truck. Knowing that the invoice cost on that 2011 is $41k, I could walk into that dealership and buy the truck for $500-1000 over that cost, for a total profit for the dealership of about $2000. The dealership has to pay salaries, commissions, and overhead out of that profit.



I'm just not seeing where you come up with 20% markup.

First off, the numbers were for reference purposes, used as a broad example to explain my opinion. Secondly, very few businesses of any size(roughly $500K annual sales or larger, domestic commodities and consumer items) can sustain themselves with less than 12-14% return on investment. In saying that, a large dealership would have to make even more to cover overhead costs. To make any kind of money, a dealer would have to mark their vehicles up near 15% to justify showing up for work on Monday, otherwise, why not put the money in the bank and live on the interest?!?! Is 20% high? Maybe, but again, it was for a reference purpose, just like the Manufacturer's SUGGESTED Retail Price. Oh, and where, exactly, are you getting the ACTUAL cost of those vehicles..... the manufacturer's website? OH, OK, I'm sure THEY are always honest... ...

 

[Cosmo]

Don't be naive. The manufacturer websites list MSRP, not invoice prices.

I understand how business used to work back in the 60s, but times have changed. Slim margins are the way to thrive in the internet world. Information is free.

Check out Edmunds.com and autos. msn.com

The margins aren't as high as you think.

The last two vehicles I bought were purchased for 3% and then 2. 5% over invoice pricing. Add back the holdback, they made less than 6% on either sale - $2000 and about 1000.

Take the parts department, for example. Some parts are sold at MSRP, some are sold at 100% OVER MSRP, depending on the customer and the parts manager.

Flip over to the internet and margins are cut WAY back, 20% over INVOICE.

Hopefully you'll quit trying to argue with me and learn, so when you buy your next car or truck you won't get ripped off. A friend of mine asked me to help her buy her first new car and I saved her about $5k off MSRP, about $2500 more than she had hoped for. The internet is full of information - use it to your advantage.