Time for front and rear brake pads

[DieselFiend]

I'm going to replace my front and rear brake pads this weekend. I've changed brakes before and according to the service manual it doesn't look much different than the other pads I've changed. My question is this...

If I just remove the caliper from the rotor but keep it connected to the brake line, force the piston back with the C-clamp for the new pads, will I still have to bleed the brakes??? My dad always bled them when he changed pads. I'm an aircraft mechanic and unless we disconnect something, a bleed isn't usually necessary. What do you experienced guys think?

 

[jelag]

I suggest that you inspect the boots on the pistons very carefully and if you find any damage to the boots you do the calipers... . if there is no damage to the boots then the following might a good approach... .

I always suggest to open a bleeder on each caliper, and compress the piston with a c-clamp or other like tool... in doing so we attach a hose to the bleeder and run the bad brake fluid into a container for disposal... this method also prevents pressure from pushing back out one piston while you compress another one... .

We hang the caliper with a short cord so that the weight of the caliper doesn't stress the hose... .

since you have a 2500 you should be able to pull the rotors, pull the ABS sensor and insert a tool into the bearing an add back some additional grease to the bearings... . I use only a full synthetic grease... with a high drop point (read melt)

I clean the friction points of the caliper to the mounting points with a wire brush, add some anti-seize to the friction points and install the new pads, and re-install the caliper. and at this time close the bleeder... . these points are the metal to metal points where the caliper assembly floats, and not on the pad to caliper connections...

I than start with the longest line, (right rear) and bleed the brakes using clean brake fluid... again using a hose, and watching the old brake fluid coming out of the caliper... since brake fluid can and will absorb water we do this until the brake fluid runs clear...

I expect to use almost a full quart flushing the entire system... . and do each caliper as needed and of course move onto each corner, longest to the shortest...

NEVER, EVER compress the piston with the bleeder closed and push all that old nasty brake fluid back to the master cylinder and through the valving of the ABS and master cylinder...

Remember that on aircraft your most likely dealing with something other than brake fluid and its flushed and changed on a regular basis... at least it was done that way on the plane that I used to fly... .

My 04 had 160K miles pulling a 20k lb trailer before the first brake job and my 05 now has 80K and the pads are about 60% you didn't say how far you made it.....

Hope this helps...

 

[DieselFiend]

We're using hydraulic fluid on our jets and normally it stays in the jet unless we have to service the resevoirs for some reason. Thanks for the help. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[RHestand]

jelag,

I noticed you didn't mention turning the rotors to "break the gaze".

It seems like you know your way around a brake-job, and I'm just curious as to your opinion on this.

(Of course I'm talking about rotors that are not scored or warped. )

I've been hearing it both ways the last few years, as to "always turn", or "just scratch them up with sandpaper. "

Thanks for your opinion on this,

Ray

PS. I like the sandpaper thing, if it works. I'll be doing my brakes before winter.

 

[jelag]

RHestand

I only do rotors to clean up a problem... . warped, heat checks, etc... A good modern friction will not harm a rotor, cheep friction with the wrong coefficient of friction will glaze, over heat, wear out quickly, do all kinds of things. .

I've had a few of my personal trucks with boots cooked off from overheat, and cracked rotors (fords) in years past... we had to install a mica spacer between the pistons and pads to keep the heat off the piston to prevent damage to the boot and shield the fluid from the heat... . and of course the brakes were way undersized for the load we were hauling and the hills... .

We do a 1000 clutches a month, for class 8 trucks... . we grind flywheels and all the parts to the clutch to resurface the parts... this is to make them smooth and flat. .

Tear down of product after lets say 1000 miles has shown us that the friction will polish the metal of the flywheel, or pressure plate, or center plate easily in the first 50 miles...

Its our feeling that roughing up the surface, is polished off by a good high end friction in hours on a brake system... Now don't get me wrong, if there's been dirt, a rock or anything to wear the surface unevenly, than we pull the rotor and turn them.....

I hate to say I've been in this industry almost 40 years... we've learned how to inspect, test and diagnosis issues... if there's a problem we want to understand not only whats wrong but what caused it... .

The simple example is a leaking seal... a percentage of the time the the seal is bad, but the mating surface of the metal that the seal turns on is bad from wear... . if you install a new seal you've solved it for a short time, but if you repair the surface that the seal rubs on it might go the life of the vehicle... . we carefully remove seals, clean and inspect, lube correctly and re-install... unless there is damage, than its a new seal, and sometimes we have to install a sleeve over the shaft that the seal rides on... like a speedy sleeve.....

I'll get off the soap box and give it back to that funny guy who thinks he's going to be the next president... .

 

[Grizzly]

since you have a 2500 you should be able to pull the rotors, pull the ABS sensor and insert a tool into the bearing an add back some additional grease to the bearings... . I use only a full synthetic grease... with a high drop point (read melt)







Jim, can the average joe pull the rotors on a 3500 dually, 4WD?

 

[jelag]

Grizzly

Yes, but you have to remove the adapter for the offset dual wheel first... than the rotor pulls off... it's more work... but well worth the effort... .

Often these parts are rusted on... we later wire brush all the parts(mating surfaces), and anti seize them before re-assembly... knowing that sometime in their life we'll have to pull them apart again... .

When I did the u-joints on the front of my trucks we greased them through the abs sensor... but on one wheel we actually pressed it apart and inspected the bearings, washed them, dried them off and applied new grease and pressed them back together... we actually did this to the first hub, to see how and where the abs sensor fit into the hub and how the grease would be spread around... once we were happy that we'd actually get grease to both bearings we used a needle fitting on the grease gun and put something like 4-6 pumps into each set...

We've now done this to 3 trucks with what we think is acceptable results... .

All of you please remember that we try and keep a truck for at least 500K miles... and all our efforts are based on lowest cost per mile of operation... . we service a UPS truck shop... . they know how to slice a dime, but do so with great logic... they often don't buy price... . they buy quality and how long will it run between the next service or down time... . Where a customer like Roadway, ABF, would say we're only keeping that tractor for 350K miles and its gone, so we only want the parts to last until we sell the truck... how cheap can you do it... . where some of the other guys might run a tractor 1. 5 million miles... .

Brake shoes on a Class 8 truck are the least expensive part of a brake job, yet a lot of guys will put inexpensive lining on the axles to save money, other customers have found that over the life of a truck they can do 1 - 3 fewer brake jobs with better lining... bringing the total cost per mile down with better friction...

Geez, another book... . sorry... .

 

[Grizzly]

Thanks Jim. I enjoy all your posts. You're one of those people that, "when you speak, I listen".

 

[DieselFiend]

Here's my arguement for turning rotors every time you replace pads. Your old pads have worn groves that mate with the wear groves in your rotors. When you don't turn them, you put on new pads that don't mate up to those grooves on the rotors. You get only certain parts of the pad contacting the surface of the rotor thus setting yourself up for problems. They may be more annoying than functional but nevertheless, they are problems.

 

[HBarlow]

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .

Geez, another book... . sorry... .

Great wisdom on brakes, hubs, rotors, bearings, and general truck maintenance. I enjoyed reading it.

 

[RHestand]

jelag,

Thanks for all the great info. I absorb this stuff like a sponge.

I'll say it again, this is why I love the TDR.

Ray

 

[Megadesertdiesel]

refernece to origial thread started. i always remove the resivoir cap and compress the caliper with a c-clamp.



what are good pads for for our dodges? where to purchase them?

 

[Grizzly]

refernece to origial thread started. i always remove the resivoir cap and compress the caliper with a c-clamp.



what are good pads for for our dodges? where to purchase them?

I find that Mopar Original Equipment to be as good as any.

 

[jelag]

Megadesertdiesel

If your comment was meant to say..... you remove the cover to the master cylinder reservoir, and than compress the piston, allowing the dirty fluid to be compressed back to the reservoir than I ask you to retrace my posts in this thread... and see why we suggest that you don't do this... .

 

[Jefff929]

I find that Mopar Original Equipment to be as good as any.

One thing I don't like, on the second gen anyway, is the reddish brake dust that forms on the front wheels from the OEM and similar pads. Has this dust been an issue for the 3rd gen trucks, or did they fix that?



I notice that Geno's has the Mopar value line and Hawk.



What are folks experience with Hawk? I know of a writeup in TDR about them a while back singing praise, but I have purchased products that folks have sung praises about (yep, even TDR writers) and been less than pleased with the lack of said part to do its assigned job. So, is Hawk for real or just something cooked up by TDR writers to get rid of Geno's inventory?



moderator or admin, if my comments are out of line LMK and I'll edit; not meaning to poke anyone in the eye, just calling things as I see them.

 

[Grizzly]

One thing I don't like, on the second gen anyway, is the reddish brake dust that forms on the front wheels from the OEM and similar pads. Has this dust been an issue for the 3rd gen trucks, or did they fix that?

I don't get the red brake dust on my 05, 3500 DRW, however my son does get the red dust on his 04. 5, 3500 SRW.

 

[WoodChuck]

I got the Hawk LTS pads front and rear and Power Slot Cryo treated rotors coming soon.

Don't forget to change the brake fluid. From what I've been reading it shouold be done at least every two years and maybe one year if using dot 4. I recomend dot 5. 1 which Geno's carries or look for Motul.

 

[JasonCzerak]

My let my rear rotors get ground up with the second set of pads on the back. the front's possibly where ok, but I replaced them as well.



I went with a full EBC setup. slotted rotors up all around. yellow stuff pads up front and green in the rear. I'm very impressed with these brakes. I might consider braided lines up front soon.



I did neglect to flush the fluid and will never do that again. mine was brown in back and red up front! I flushed about 6 quarts though the system to ensure it was clean. I'll flush another 1/2 to 1 quart though just before the cold snap. I used Dot 4 fluid that you can find in at any parts store. The fluid change made a large difference in my case.



I don't tow, I just have fun and braking is as fun as accelerating now.

 

[jelag]

All of you need to understand that some brakefluids are not compatable with others...



And some brake fluids that are not recommended are that way because the chemicals in the brake fluid might not be compatable with the chemicals in the seals and o-rings... .



Great harm can come from either mixing different Dot # fluids or using the incorrect one. . please always read the top of the cap of the master cylinder or consult your owners manual... I've seen the wrong fluids swell the seals so they either leak or seize up... .

 

[Cattletrkr]

How does the brake fluid get dirty in a closed system? I understand it can break down, but dirty?