Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Timing v/s Power Made

[NBowlin]

Just curious as to how much timing plays a role in producing power.

I am pretty disapointed in how my truck is performing lately. When I first had it shipped over to me it had a stock turbo, no laser cuts, some wierd fuel plate, and some minor other things not done to it, and it would smoke my 35's off shifting from 2nd to 3rd. It wont do it at all now. Aside from that it just doesnt get out of its own way like it used to. There is a significant amount of power lost here that shouldnt be. I have had issues in the way of 2 blown head gaskets, one nuked clutch, 2 dead trannies, and various other breakages that have all been fixed with better than stock parts. As well as the new turbo(on the map at 53psi), dv's, and fuel plate have been added. I know my clutch (Haisley dd) is holding so it is not that.



Ok now that you know what is going on with it. Here is what I am thinking is wrong with it. I believe that the timing somewhere along the line has slipped. Here is my reasons:

1. when it first got here it was a pain in the rear to get started when it was even moderatley cold, and now even when it has sat in 10* for days it will fire right up.

2. it was much snappier.

3. the smoke was much darker when it first got here as it starts out dark and goes to a light grey color now. There isnt in anyway a lack of it. its just not dark.

4. my egts went from about 575-650 cruising to 850-950 crusing at 65.



Do you all agree that the timing would be the culprit for this? fuel filter has been changed, so that is not it either. Also the lift pump has been swapped out for new as well.



So if timing is the culprit here what do you all think bumping it to 23* would do for the truck with what i have in my signiture? Also one more box gets here and I will put my twins on, and I am not wanting to be dissapointed.

They will be usb1 on top with a 26 type bht3b on the bottom. any guesses as to the output?



Sorry for the length, but I was pretty disapointed with it today.

Thanks for taking your time to read and answer. I appreciate it.

 

[ndurbin]

On your truck since it's heavily mod'd. I dont know if this would apply. But on stock trucks when the timing has slipped when their sitting in nuetral and you free rev it, they don't fully rap out to over 3000. And smokes some on the top end when free revving it.



Have you checked your overflow vavle to see if maybe it's bad? Makes a high pitched squealling noise when ya pump the hand primer button.



Nathan

 

[NBowlin]

"Have you checked your overflow vavle to see if maybe it's bad? Makes a high pitched squealling noise when ya pump the hand primer button. "



Overflow valve is new as well, sorry I forgot that.

 

[Andy Redmond]

I think you have too much timing, but your vendor(s) may have you running this for a good reason, so don't let me interfere if you've been down this road. Usually more timing moves the curves/ponies up on the top end. Just my . 02, but start with 16 deg. and move up a degree at the time 'til you find your "sweet spot" if you believe timing is part of your issue. Also its hard to compare as I'm not sure if your o-ring set up is like running a . 020 over gasket etc. (ie this lowers compression ratio, combustion pressures etc. ) so maybe you do need 20 deg. of time to make it "apples to apples. "



Sounds like you are missing some bottom end. Again your fueling and turbo mods may be the result of this and need some tuning or parts changing to achieve a specific goal (balance).



Like ole Joe D says, "most people add too much fuel" Gasp, did I utter heresy? In context, I think he means that many add big injectors, delivery valves etc and aren't able to benefit from all that fuel. Particularly unless they are matching the air demands for all the fuel with proper turbo(s) and or cam(s) to allow better fuel/air ratio.



Not saying this is what's happened but maybe compare your original fueling to where you are today and consider if you are overfueling or not or at least at the rpm range which you want your tires to break loose .





Nathan, sometimes new OF. valves squeak. Its just breaking open and allowing fuel to return. If you can stroke the primer quick enough it'll still make good pressure on your fp gauge (unless the OF valve or lift pump are faulty).





Andy

 

[ndurbin]

I have never tested a new overflow valve after I installed so I guess that could happen. I'll keep that in mind next time.



Nathan

 

[RonA]

When i went from a stock head and PDR cam to a ported head with a . 020 over head gasket. It felt like I lost 50 hp on the bottom. The bottom was great before the ported head and gasket. I was told that the compression change from the thicker gasket was the problem. I went to a . 010 over gasket and I didn't see much difference over a . 020. On the bottom end from 1300 to 1700 rpm my stock head pulled much harder. I finally got some power back when I went from 275s to jammer 2s. But it still does not make my 5600 groan like it used to. My USB caused my egts to go through the roof. About 200 degrees hotter at any boost level than the 35/14. Twins will cure the heat, but mine don't snap the boost hard like a single. More like a long sustained pull.

 

[NBowlin]

I have a spare fuel plate and I was thinking of grinding flat with a sloping foot on the bottom. Make sence? In an attempt to keep the truck from "choking" its self out with fuel. Do you think this would be a good route to take? I run a . 10 over marine head gasket w/ . 014 protrusion on my o-rings.



As far as my vendors go. I dont have any I am winging it here. This is my first ctd. As well as first diesel project. The TDR is the closest thing to training I have had.



Ron,

You arent kidding about egts and that usb, but I am going to give it a chance as a top charger. What do you think about its wastegate's capabilities in regards to regulating boost in the twins?



Thanks again.

 

[Andy Redmond]

Stepping on vendor toes. . If they are recommending a certain combo, they likely have a reason for doing so. . that's all.



It sounds like you are attempting to make the "100" plate that Joe Donnelly first "popularized" ?



I think it will allow for full fueling, but has a profile for the rack to follow at first for some fuel and smoke control at lower rpms etc.



In re-reading your post, you are stating more egt's than prev. noted (with current setup or the baseline when you first got the truck). Ambient air temps can affect this summer to winter, but that's quite a jump. So that may not be an indication that the truck is under fueling (sometimes less egt's than normal mean less fueling). Any boost leaks, innercooler leaks, stuck malfunctioning wastgate etc. might cause the spike in EGT's (reduction in air)



Have you seen the post on the "Fernco" adapters many have assy. to pressure test the innercooler /boost/related piping etc? Maybe fab up something to restrain it should it pop off as it can even with low air psi. You could also lay a heavy canvas or welding blanket on top of it too to restrain it should it pop off. .



We want to see some smiles and burnouts soon.



Good luck

Andy

 

[NBowlin]

I dont have any issues building boost. Wastegate holds it to 50 right now just like its spose to. If I disable it I have seen 72 psi. For me it's a toss up for timing or the laser cuts, but I am hesitant to throw more money at it until I can have some one look at it when I come home, and the truck arrives from the shipping company. Trying to get into the ballpark with it is all. I think I have some good stuff, but it just needs to be looked at by someone who knows what they are doing.



"you are stating more egt's than prev. noted (with current setup or the baseline when you first got the truck)"

I noticed this difference with the usb, when I first put it on as compared to now.

Wouldnt low timing create a higher cruising egt?



Thanks Andy for your advise.

 

[Andy Redmond]

Yes, you have great boost numbers, but do you have a leak? (innercoolers are prone to this). As our trucks age, I see more and more leaky innercoolers. Our aging interstate systems and potholes may shake them to death



From RonA's post sounds like the USB may relate to higher egt's. . It sounds like he has a 24v (275 injectors) , not sure if it was converted to the p-pump or not, but he was sharing some comparisons.



I vote on trying it without laser cuts and seeing where you are. Or I guess you could wait on your turbos then see if that combo makes you smile.



On your timing, I haven't really seen a "chart" of how much change is necessary with say a . 010 gasket, . 020 gasket to equal an oem setup. Some guys run thicker gaskets whether the head was decked or not to reduce cylinder pressures and compression ratios a bit. So it might be a trial and error thing until you find the sweet spot.



Yes all things equal, less timing may equate to more egt's.



Do a search on "timing" on the Fritz web page (dodgeram.org). . Josh Berman quotes some Cummins charts of what happens when timing is increased/decreased. . You will likely find it interesting reading, if you haven't seen it before (and my fingers are tired)



Andy

 

[JGK]

I think Andy was referring to this chart.



It's hard to diagnose what the problem is via the net. We all have lots of ideas, but most of them you've looked into. Other suggestions: fuel lines good-to-go (no air leaks), fuel heater, have you checked your fuel pressure? (lift pump may be week, but that's rare on a 12-valve)



My only other suggestion is do the best you can and hold off on putting on the twins until you get back to the States and become a neighbor (that's happening soon, right?). Lot's of help nearby and you're just part of a day's drive from Piers.



-Jay

 

[NBowlin]

"My only other suggestion is do the best you can and hold off on putting on the twins until you get back to the States and become a neighbor (that's happening soon, right?). Lot's of help nearby and you're just part of a day's drive from Piers. "



Holding off on the twins wouldnt work out too well. I have already payed to have it all shipped out here, and I have a buddy who is going to help with the welding for food and beer. Plus the lack of time and space when I get back. I was thinking of going right from the shipping yard to DDP cause they are closest. What does dyno and shop time go for an hour, I pressume its by the hour?



Neighbor soon.....come home 26th of may! who knows when the truck will get here though. My Fiance is looking for a house now in the rathdrum, hayden, coeur d'alene area. We dont have a big budget so its not looking good for even a small shop.



Anyways the lift pump is brand new from Case, I did not how ever change the rubber lines on the fuel heater. Oh I did track down a leak from two of the injector retainer nuts that were allowing fuel to get by. How big an issue could that have been?



Thats all i have until Monday when I can get back into the shop and check my timing and tighten them nuts up.



Thanks again.

 

[RonA]

If you have a hard time getting the USB to work as a secondary charger, let me know. I just bought one of the group buy turbos from JR Adkins. I think it is about the same on the outside. We could hook up halfway between Reno and Idaho and swap it. Or I could send it up to DDP if you decide to go there. Look in the forums for a thread I started a couple of days ago about the group buy turbo. Pictures were posted of one. If it looks like the USB, you'll at least be able to try this one and see if it makes it better or worse. Good luck.

Ron

 

[DavidTD]

As everyone has said, it is hard to diagnose a problem over the net. But I'll do the best I can with your questions.



"1. when it first got here it was a pain in the rear to get started when it was even moderatley cold, and now even when it has sat in 10* for days it will fire right up. "

You didn't say you changed injectors since you bought it, but when you go from say a stock injector to a 370 injector the pop-off pressure is higher on the 370 injector. This has the same effect as retarding timing. There are other things that "could" affect starting, but this one is tough over the net.



"2. it was much snappier. "

Turbo. A stock 35 turbo is very responsive. With such a small exhaust housing it responds very well and generates tons of TQ on these engines at a very low RPM. Going to a larger turbo will increase lag, and decrease low rpm TQ. The result is a less snappy engine.



"3. the smoke was much darker when it first got here as it starts out dark and goes to a light grey color now. There isnt in anyway a lack of it. its just not dark. "

Turbo. Dark smoke means no air with lots of fuel. Big turbo means more air and better air once it is spooling. This will clean up the black smoke because you are burning more of the fuel. But until that turbo begins to work, you will have black smoke.



"4. my egts went from about 575-650 cruising to 850-950 crusing at 65. "

Turbo again. Since you are running a larger housing on the turbo, at a 65 mph cruise, your engine is developing the same amount of air as it was before. Larger housing results in less turbine speed and less boost. This results in higher EGTs. In other words, at 65, you may have been making 10psi boost, now you might make 2-3 psi. The same fueling level is required to run 65 mph no matter which turbo and that fuel level with less boost means? More heat.



Aside from the starting, I think you are experiencing the downsides to a bigger turbo. With a manual transmission, you lose boost while shifting, and the process starts all over again to build boost. Big turbo's work very well at higher RPM's but if the engine is not worked there, you will not see the benefit. Add to this you are now, adding more fuel (dv's & plate) you could be over fueling down low with no boost and hurting power even more.



Good Luck.

 

[JGK]

What does dyno and shop time go for an hour, I pressume its by the hour?

Generally, if you pay for dyno time by the hour, you'll see charges of $75 to maybe $90 per hour, give or take. But if you get in on a dyno day event, they'll charge around $45 for 2 or 3 runs.



Can't offer a cost for shop time as I haven't looked into it. But there's lots of TDR and NWBombers members in your future area that will be glad to help.



-Jay