Tolerance..?

[nps]

Alot is being said on these boards about not overacting, letting the system work, etc. , etc. , etc.



I want to say that I 100% support individual libertys and freedoms. But the sad fact is that there are bad people out there and at this point in time most of them are of middle-Eastern descent.



I've got two children in uniform, one a sailor and one a soldier (no Marines yet ), both stationed on the east coast.



My son, an auxillary SP, was rousted out of bed Tuesday 9/11 and has been on perimeter guard ever since. THEY ARE BEING PROBED. They have even detained ME people with drawings outside the fence but had to let them go because they hadn't done anything (yet).



I fully support expanded powers for the FBI, CIA, DIA and NSA. Anybody of any race, creed or color should be hammered for even looking suspicious - lock them up and throw away the key. Maybe even make bomb threats a capital offense.



The appearance of security - more questions and no tweezers on flights - is intended to make the public feel good. But it is time to take care of business and roll back the neutering of our enforcement organizations sponsered by the feel good PC crowd and the ACLU. There is nothing wrong with a period of being guilty if you look guilty, even if you are an American born citizen. We've been through this in past conflicts and will get there again, but the pendulum has swung far enough - for now.



Off the soapbox.



God Bless America.



Neil

 

[BK]

I right there with you... .

next to you...

behind you. .

got your back...



If we are gonna make it through this we need to get a thicker

skin and forget about being PC and get our ducks in order and start knocking them down. They changed the rules! Not us.



Thanks for bring up great kids, it feels great that they are off my shores taken care of business.



One of the many good things I've hear from our government is that they are fully aware that if we do nothing, this sort of stuff will still happen, if we do something (like sending over a few cruise missles to land in the sand pile... tnx Clinton) this sort of stuff will still happen... So we need to operate and take out the problem so this sort of stuff WONT happen.



That's was very good to hear...





Bob

 

[joel]

WTF?????

Originally posted by nps



...



Anybody of any race, creed or color should be hammered for even looking suspicious - lock them up and throw away the key.

...

There is nothing wrong with a period of being guilty if you look guilty, even if you are an American born citizen. We've been through this in past conflicts and will get there again, but the pendulum has swung far enough - for now.



...

God Bless America.



Neil



[/QUOTE



God bless who? America? Uh uh. If you're hammered just for "looking suspicious" and you should be locked up with the key thrown away, it's not America. May as well be Afghanistan.



NOTHING WRONG with a period of being guilty if you LOOK guilty? What the f*&k are you thinking???? Who is going to decide if you look guilty? You? Me? What makes someone look guilty or suspicious? I know, how about Joe McCarthy... well, OK, his (ideological) decendants.



Have you ever read the Constitution of the United States??



"Amendment V



No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.





Amendment VI



In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense. "



And don't forget a couple of the bedrock foundations of our entire legal system: the presumtion of innocence and the requirement of the state to prove BEYOND A RESONABLE DOUBT that someone has committed an offense.



I go to work every day to preserve these rights for you and every single citizen of the US. Not just the ones who don't look suspicious. Not just the ones who don't look guilty. All of them.



Overreaction? I think you've just given us the epitome of an overreaction.

 

[swamp rat]

Re: WTF?????

[[/B][/QUOTE



God bless who? America? Uh uh. If you're hammered just for "looking suspicious" and you should be locked up with the key thrown away, it's not America. May as well be Afghanistan.



Edit: Deletion



I go to work every day to preserve these rights for you and every single citizen of the US. Not just the ones who don't look suspicious. Not just the ones who don't look guilty. All of them.



Overreaction? I think you've just given us the epitome of an overreaction. [/B][/QUOTE]



Joel you can also insert "NAZI GERMANY" in lieu of "Afghanistan".



Can we say Gestapo? Believe me I am for all out annhilation of the guilty, even if it means the loss of innocent life forms. But we need to do some preparatory planning beforehand. Since Clinton has emasculated our military, this will mean it may take a bit longer to accomplish than most of us would like to see.



The absolute last thing I want to see is Neils kids go into a warzone without a good solid strategy of attack and then Neil or anyone else getting notification that their son or daughter were killed in a raid that was botched up due to lousy planning.



After hearing Bush's speech tonight, I think he made it very clear that we may never hear of what really happens in defeating these slimeballs. That is good, because what it will take most folks won't be able to stomach. Clandestine and covert ops with EXTREME PREDJUDICE is our best option.



Whenever we do what it is that we have to do, I hope and trust that it will be much more than is really necessary to accomplish our goals, in order to save the lives of our people. All I think we need to hear after the fact is these words "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, MINIMAL/NO CASUALTIES!"

 

[Champane Flight]

For one.

I for one don't have a lot of faith in our inteligence comunity.

I have seen some of there bungles in the past,Iran,Iraq,Nam. It seems to me they do a lot of guessing,NOT good. We have always been reactionists. (Closing the gate after the horse gets out). I do think that we need to take precautions to eliminate the risk of terorism. However,lets all keep a close eye on these idiots. Let us make sure they don't start to take our basic rights away. This is one reason we are armed.

 

[BK]

Good, read it very very very carefully, and now listen very very carefully to our President? But it seems you've done neither... ...



Amendment V



"... except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger;... . "



and again, our President did not say we are going to bring these people to "Justice", we are waging WAR. The Federal authorities are taking the action, not our local Police. So these actions are not to bring people to "justice" but are being delt with within our response to an action of WAR. ,,, not Justice, not a local mugging, not a local hate crime, AN ACT OF WAR!

Two very different things.



WAR. . get it? THE ACLU has not a damn thing todo with this, nor does your local Lawyer. If an lawyer did step in, he would be delt with as a traitor... get it? It would be like Jane Fonda siting on the NV's anti-aircraft gun... . get it?



Our President declared War. These terrorists have declared War.

Does not a body count of 6. 3K + constitute public danger, when we know others are still running around our nation that want to die todo the same thing?

Did you know that the night of 9-11-01 many many more bombs were found and defeated? Did you know that these @#$@# tried to blow up every bridge connecting the Islands of NY?

Do you understand THE USA was under attack and a War was leveled on our soil and STARTED?



Which would you rather have happen:

A) You yourself or loved one be on the next plane that gets used as a flying bomb

OR

B) Have the feelings hurt of some person that looks like they are from of the group waging this war (yes we are profiling now, check out your news) and is nervous and jittery that's on your plane... because that person was asked to get off and are taken off...

?? I know my answer, I know Neil's answer... I would be honored to have Neil cover my back.



Being too PC has gotten us here today with the present body count. Some feelings are gonna get hurt in the future and are getting hurt now. Sorry the great good is needs to prevail, the safety of our nation and not building the body count with good people. (notice I didnt say Americans, of course I mean Americans, I also mean the good people of this earth)



I am not saying , at all, that every ME looking person should be deported. But if they are dancing in the streets of the USA cause of the attacks and / or have questionable ID or connections, GET THEM OUT!!



We had "internment" camps in WWII for all people of Japanese descent..... The FBI had their Comi list.....



You can take a bullet or loose a loved one to let a person of questionable trust on to a plane or to let them stay in the US. . I'm not.



I have a friend that was born in Pakastan, I've said this before on this BB, I'll say it again, I know him for 15 years for the person he is. I would defend him



If it was a "skin head" that did 9-11-01, I would have all of the same thoughts.





WAKE UP! If 9-11-01 didn't wake you up , you weren't close enough to it.



I was proud last night when I listened to our President speak.

He was on target, strong and has done an incredible job of building international support, that at 1st I didnt think we should need to get, to do what we need to do. But I now think he did the best thing and is going to do the right thing. I know he has the support of many people in his staff. But a great leader not only leads, he listens.



Bob

 

[joel]

WAR vs. not war....

BK,



First, only the Congress has the power to declare WAR [Article I, Section 7 of the Constitution]. They have not done so. What they have done is pass a resolution supporting the President's use of force in this effort. Now, before you get all bent out of shape, yes, I do know this is essentially a war, but the declaration makes a difference here in response to what you said above: "... except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger;... . " Now, not arguing the fact that we are in a time of "public danger', this still doesn't apply to you or any "joe citizen", it applies to members of the military. That means the military doesn't need a Grand Jury to prosecute you for a captial or "otherwise infamous crime" - i. e. treason, desertion. Those crimes are punishable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice by death in a time of war.



"If it was a "skin head" that did 9-11-01, I would have all of the same thoughts. " OK, so if it was the skinheads, you'd support rounding up all the white people with no hair and locking them up or booting them out of the country? That would take down a lot of our military people. I have no idea what you look like, but would you fit into this group? White, male, short to no hair... . The Hair Club of America would probably make a buttload of money if it was a skinhead attack!



This amendment in no way gives the government power to round up suspicious looking people and throw away the key. If you hired a lawyer to protect your rights under the Consitiution, for ANY reason, at ANY time, he would most certainly not be dealt with as a traitor. What are you talking about here? You round up someone for looking suspicious, he hires a lawyer to defend himself and now the lawyer is a traitor for upholding the laws of this great land? WTF??



This concept (rounding up suspicious looking people) is so fundamentally anti-American that if it starts happening, then (to use an over used cliche) the terrorists have indeed won. Let me put it to you this way... If we can suspend parts of the Constitution, why not the one about the right to bear arms? Normally you have to be a convicted felon to lose that right, correct? Now, since we are at war... the government decides that it's too dangerous to have the average citized armed, so let's round up all the guns and anyone not complying is now a traitor - because they didn't agree with the government's policies. How's that sound. It's basically no different from what you're proposing.



Yes, we had internment camps during WWII and it's pretty much reviled as something we did that was very wrong. We've even paid reparations to the survivors for what we did then. Yes, the FBI had their lists and McCarthy has his. Both were so completely wrong that if you tried that now, you'd be the one getting an unflattering title or lable.



As for profiling - I don't necessarily disagree with the policy, as long as it's based on solid evidence and those that are stopped for questioning are accorded their rights and given due process if they are charged. I'm not the most politically correct person, so maybe this will **** off some of the more PC out there.



I am, however, a staunch defender of the Constitution. All of it, not just the parts that I like. Not just the right to bear arms, not just freedom of religion or speech, ALL of it. And by the way, Neil's kids aren't the only ones out there on the tip of the spear. I fly for the Navy - a plane that will be leading the way for any air activity that happens - so I'm not just some armchair quarterback here. I know what I'm saying and what it means when I say I go to work every day to protect those rights we're talking about doing away with. My oath of office starts with, "I do solemly swear to protect and defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic..... " Like I said, ALL of the constitution. Not just the parts you like. Or Neil likes. Or I like, but all of it.





By the way, saying you have a friend born in Pakistan sounds like every person I've ever known trying to hide a prejudice by saying they have a friend or know someone in a certain goup: "One of my best friends is black. " "I have some gay friends. " My nextdoor neighbor is a Jew. " And so on and so on. Who cares if you have a friend who was born in Pakistan. What's that got to do with anything: according to your argument, if he does something that looks suspicious, he should be rounded up and either locked up or deported. And you... you'd be a traitor if you tried to defend him!!



Flame on.

 

[Power Wagon]

It seems to me that the concept of doing in our liberties, our freedoms, our rights, is counter-productive. We're not going to stop terrorism just by acting in bad faith, and by being prejudiced here. In fact, we can wage this war ONLY if we carry the badge of being RIGHT. That is, we are, without doubt, doing this for good, not evil. Remember, if our cause is just, and we are right, then we have the moral authority to demand cooperation from the world. If we descend to a blind rage against a religion or a people, then we have become what those who hate us think they hate us for.



The radicals who mastermind this and other attacks on the west do so because they have no understanding of us, nor do they have an understanding of freedom. If they did, they would choose freedom for themselves, not thier warped existence.



But we know better. We are right. We are on the side of good, not destruction. And that's all the justification we need. It is our strength, and it is what enables us to fight a campaign against widespread, but thin networks of individuals of a common cause. If we descend into hate and vengeance, then we lose focus of our goal, lose focus of our mission, and we WILL LOSE.



We are not weak, we need not give in to those who call for giving up liberties and rights or the oppression of people without justification in the name of "protection". That's what weak people do. Strong people do not let the events mold them or thier nation. Nobody, and I repeat, NOBODY is going to overrun our nation, or make us lose this campaign. This is not a world war. No army of occupying invaders needs be repelled at the border, or is in danger of overrunning our streets.



Liberty and freedom, and constitutional rights, are not just worth dying for, they are worth living for. They are worth defending, worth keeping, and worth maintaining. They are what made us who we are. They are the tool that built us so strong nobody can overrun us. They are the enabling power that built a nation of diverse people who can win world wars. It would be utter folly to give up that strength now, just for an empty and illogical argument of "safety" or "security".

 

[DaveN]

Lessons learned

When Oklahoma city was bombed, the first thing out of everyone's mouth (including the government) was middle eastern terrorists. Then we found out it's some psycho from our own country.



Obviously this case is not the same, but you always have to be careful about making generalizations about people, even when the evidence is overwhelming. There are probably hundreds of arab terrorists in the country, but we can't round up millions of people just because they look like a terrorist. There are generalizations about every nationality and color of people, some of these change with time (look at the Irish at the turn of the century), my family changed the pronunciation of their name in an attempt to avoid issues with our name sounding polish. After they did that, they were able to hide from prejudice, because we LOOKED just like all the other americans, but we were still polish.



I occasionally fight with my own prejudices, some of which were passed down from my family and some were learned. But as I get older I realize that most of my prejudices are really undeserved and inappropriate, even though I can always find examples to reinforce those prejudices. For every example, I can find another example which is opposite. So really it boils down to fear of the unknown. When a new group of people move into a population, there is fear of "will they take our jobs, will they steal our belongings, will they kidnap my kids, will they knock up my daughter, will they bomb my church?" Those are natural fears, and are the basis of prejudice.



My $0. 025 worth, for what it's worth.....

 

[BK]

Joel.



Good one...



"The Hair Club of America would probably make a buttload of money if it was a skinhead attack"...





So your ok with the principal of what Jane Fonda did, sitting on the gun that probably shot down Americans and smiling? You would be ok with a Lawyer fighting to keep a suspected terrorist in this country? I'm not talking "joe citizen" here. .

I did level my measure, you just failed to recongnize it and took quotes out of context. . sounds like what a sleezy lawyer would do to me.

I did not lay a blanket over a broad population based on race/color and or religion. As pointed out soo many times this isn't even a religious issue, these fanaticals are operating outside the definition of their own religion.



And my point was and as I had said... . "all the same thoughts"... .

I quote myself...

"But if they are dancing in the streets of the USA cause of the attacks and / or have questionable ID or connections, GET THEM OUT!! "



Not based just on the color of their skin, base on their actions.



Joel quote. . "By the way, saying you have a friend born in Pakistan sounds like every person I've ever known trying to hide a prejudice by saying they have a friend or know someone in a certain goup... . "



I can't help what excuses you make to disregard facts, you don't know me.



I have nothing to hide, as you see I open my mouth very wide, many times too wide... and all my thoughts spill out. I'm not very articulate with the english language... never was, never will be... but thats not my talent.

I do have that person as a friend and I've stopped by many times during the week to make sure he's ok.

Your right, if he was anti-American and I defended him I should be seen as a traitor. . but I know him for 15 years, I know where he stands. He is not anti American. If he was, I would be the 1st to turn him into the FBI. No question, no doubt, no hesitation.



I also know there are idiots around here, and there have been reports of both $@$@ dancing in the street to celebrate the attacks, and @#$@ victimizing those that don't deserve it. I care for that person as a friend. I do not stop supporting stores because of the color or religion of the person behind the counter, as others are doing.

BTW, my friend's brother is very arrogant, self centered and I don't hold a friendship with him. My friends and interests run very wide and very vast... . I chose to share an example because of my sometimes overly stupid honesty... again if you chose to disregard these facts as an excuse to make yourself feel better. . I can't help that and your comments of this said subject shows your own sheild to your closed mindedness. I've heard your comment soo many times used in such arguments in the press the bleeding heart lefty press.



Thats one of those phrases people stand behind with a close mind when they need some defense,,,,, like the old management line trying to place blame -----

"That's no excuse!!!!... "...



Thats right it's not an excuse, it's just what happened...

If you don't like it and cant accept the truth... tough #$@.





And from all that I've read, what was passed by congress that allows the President to respond to the act of agression that is being catagorized as an act or "War". We are not heading into a peace keeping mission. We are not heading into a police action. We will go toe to toe with a nation that hides the terrorists. . So what is it called?



There's a large difference between some one being held by the profiling during WWII and whats being done now. Admittily I did not draw a difference between the two in my last post as you have pointed out.

A criteria is being held and worked to, I see no harm in use such the same filter to hold and question a "skin heads". (which infers much more than short haired people, we all know that if you've followed the past events). But just because it was one of "them" that performed the horrible attack on the people in the Federal Building in Ohk. , the general public didn't start attacking Churches. .

The people of the US must understand that what happened on 9-11-01 and because of the color and "religion" of the #@#4 that did it, we must not attack like people just because...

But no-one cried foul as the FBI went around questioning , detaining and closing down and choking off the "clubs" that Tim M. associated with or may have associated with. I was for the actions of the FBI, don't get me wrong by no means do I support what Tim M did or supported. . I was chearing on the FBI back than, I am now. There are a lot of gray areas with the ATF and what they did... but I believe we'll never know the truth.

But we did not take what Tim M did as an act of War. So it was handled with legal recourse. And if someone wanted to hire a lawyer because the FBI was breathing down their neck... they could.



If your not an American, you are not afforded these rights or protection... if your dance in the streets in celebration of the attacks. . GO HOME! I still say we should round them up and send them home. . again as you left out in your post, there is a filter and they are profiling to more than just the color of their skin. . It is THAT , that I'm fine with. We need solidarity right now, not overly zeolot PCism pulling us apart.



Right now since the color/ religion /race are other than "white" the high and mighty PC people are getting all PC, but forgetting about the greater good. The fact is that some feelings are gonna get hurt, but thats ok by me if it means no more American blood or those that support America will be spilled. I known I'll find a lot of things I need to do to perform my job are about to get a lot tougher and harder. . but it wont bother me a bit , as long as it's going to protect those that it should. In the mean time we'll have to just listen to the overly PC folks screaming... I say we make them get on a plane filled with suspect terrorists when they make their next flight, lets see if they still scream... I think they will, but only to be let off the plane.



You can call me an Arm chair "what ever you want"... cause I am, can't argue that. I'm not serving now and I'm not a lawyer. Military industry has basically died here on LI, so I no longer can add my support in the manor I did for years. But I am an American and , just as you, I'm allowed my opinion. Back when it was asked of me to sign up, I did. I never got called. I didn't run, didn't look for loop hole. In the mean time I started my career designing and building certain military hardware. Even in that case I stood above profit and bull headed bosses to do what was the right thing... I had bosses that wanted to get things done just so they could be billed and get the money in from it. It was amazing, they would tell me or others to sign off on it, since it wasnt correct I wouldnt. They would presure to... so I would tell them that if they "think" it's right, they could certainly sign it off themselves, but none would. We had our recourse with the "DECAS" folks (sp?, been awhile) if the management screwed around, we could stop garbage from shipping even if the management signed off on it. There wasn't a design or peice of hardware that I worked on or was responsible for that went out with out being 110% correct. I did my job right so those depending on that peice of hardware could do theirs without reservation and neither "GI-Joe" or Uncle Sam would fail. I may not have taken to arms at the order of the President, but I did all I could to help.



I know that we may never hear of all of the heroes that will loose their life in commission of these coming missions. We Fly our flags today and tomorrow and the next day for them. Those fine people will loose their life securing our freedom and to help rid terrorism from the world. We pray that these lifes are not lost in vain or at all, but we may never find out.



I believe what the President said was perfect, I think the actions being taken now are being done well. I think it will get "worse" (for those that don't like whats going on now) before it gets better for the PC driven. It's been years since we've had to live life with these problems. We've lived a damn good many years feeling really warm and cozzy. . Time out on that for now.





Bob

 

[BK]

RE:Constitution of the United States...



I believe our forefathers were so very ahead of our time. I wish as standing proof of their absolute thoughts , we had a manuscript of their thoughts. Most of the best thinking is done under pressure when resolve is at it's peak.



But our 1st and 2nd Amendment have taken such a beating and common quote usage has not been able to compare with the ever change interperation of the government in office at the time.



It's great to quote it chapter and Vs, but certain "lawyers" of this country have butchered it up soo much.



For example...

If a "certain" interpertations of the 2nd Amendment were soo secure, how and why are local state governments allowed to restrict ownership of all firearms?



I'm not taking to task either sides of that issue with the 2nd or the 1st for that matter in email. . but meerly pointing out that siting chapter and verse , sorry to say, doesn't always mean much. The government, right or wrong, as changed it's view of the meanings based on it's needs, which has been done by changing support documents that have further definitions, "pointing" to the "real" meaning.

 

[nps]

Joel,



Sorry to hear your response.



If you feel that people of middle eastern descent should be allowed to walk free after being detained outside one of the largest east coast military installations (that was by the way shipping out our brave young military folks two days later) at night and posessing hand drawn diagrams of the installation because they didn't acutally do anything and didn't have immigration problems, then you may as well kiss your a$$ goodbye now.



If these 'innocent until proven guilty' folks come back and do harm then whose hands will the blood be on? Hope they don't get your plane.



I was warmed by Senator Schumer from NY when he recounted a liberal woman in Grenwich village telling him no wars - no military. He replied in '93 they took 6 lives, now they took 6,000. If we do nothing, the next time will be 6 million.



These are extradornary times. Have you heard the number of bomb threats being made? Do you realize what this does to our ability to react when a real crisis may come up again.



Given the damage already inflicted then these types should be held as prisoners of war. If you believe a declaration of war needs to be enacted by Congress to do that, then I throw my full support behind it as well. What we cannot afford is to let these scumbags exploit our liberties to our own harm. You suggest this is a criminal matter - I respectfully and strongly disagree. I think our President does also - I hope you count him as our President unlike some in the media.



So I will repeat - God Bless America.

 

[BK]

Well said, again Neil. .



I may have my "issues" with this country and very specific items... like "Electoral college" (sp?) . . , don't see the need for it, think it's out of date, too much room to bend an election... ... but geez, if it wasnt for the EC, Bush may not have made it in... we'd be up the creek with out a paddle right now.....



But thats my right as a free thinker, and I wouldn't live anyplace else.



I'm 100% behind what OUR PRESIDENT is doing, what the FBI, CIA, NSA and INS need todo. What our military needs todo.

It wont be PC... but we need to secure our future so we can go on with life without looking over our shoulders.



Because of PCism many of these organization's had their fundings cut very deeply... that is one item the members of congress are beating each other over the head with. . pointing fingers, blaming one another... . hindsite is 20/20... . lets just fix the problem and get their slimy terrorist butts to a place they can't do any harm.







God Bless America

 

[Papa Joe]

Remember, after Dodge changed the front end of our beloved trucks so radically, and it caught on ?? Dodge capitalized upon it with the "The rules have changed" advertising campaign. Poignant.

What's the point?



The day after September 11... ... "The Rules have changed !!" Like it or not they have.

Interpretations of law must be viewed with new perspective. Certain comtemporary military tactics have just been declared OBSOLETE. Common, everyday Freedoms have vanished. Some senses of security went up in smoke and settled upon us as dust. Without firing a shot 6300 plus citizens were decimated... ... . without firing a single cap !!!



I don't know the answers, but I do know we are faced with new challenges in uncharted waters. The stakes are high, it's scary, and TIME is of the essence.



The president drew a line in the sand and told the world to pick a side, and pick it quickly. He told the military to be alert and get ready. When 'Time's up'... ... ... Those on the wrong side of the line should hear incoming.



Sorry, but the little patience I've had is gone.



Papa Joe

 

[BK]

Even our President said that this was a different War, a War we haven't fought before.



Since we haven't fought this War before, sadly 9-11-01 happened.



When in a Dojo, a wrestling match or boxing ring one follows certain rules.

This is worse than a street fight.

A boxer will get killed in a pure street fight, while he concentrates on his style and his rules. He doesn't expect to get hit below the belt... not what he trained for.

We were just slammed below the belt, worse than ever before.

With a kidney punch to follow, all with brass knuckles... .



If we keep our gloves on we will not win this kind of War.

 

[CGoyette]

For all... Lighten up on the constitition! (its perfect as is)



We have for ever more been changed... . for some a bump on the head would have been enough for US it was a hammer to the groin! You see we have had our head stuck in the sand for awhile now. Some examples:

Iran Hostage... we where sheep!

Beruit Lebanon... my friend Brad Mcneely was killed

NYC van in car parking under WTC... bin laden

Africa embassies-bin laden

USS COLE-bin laden

WTC towers/Pentagon-bin laden



So america when do you get mad enough to really go after this problem? 6 Million deaths like one post said?



What this will take is for the US to stop "all and any" aid to any country that harbors terroist and all trade is stopped. Our allies will have to do the same. For the un educated on how terroist work is simple they can't do big ops without state sponsered help!



We will also have to get real ready for casulaties in this war. We will also need to spend some money on our own us soil security.



We have to stop thinking it won't happen to us and realize it is happening and will only get worst.



We must also gaurd against the ability for the wacko religious groups to get the upper hand on the political scene..... expect video of children killed by our bombs to be broadcast... . expect it to be real bad also.



What do you think these people will do let us bomb them? It will take some real Guts to do what needs done (Go GW!)and it will take ground troops to clean after each bombing run.



But mostly it will take us the American pepole to get hardened like our WWII vets! We need to be tough and fight.



We have become sheep and we need to get tough again.



ever wonder why the russia seems imune to this stuff from external forces? One clear example

When the IRANians took our embassy theuy also took some russian hostages. The KGB went in and found the hostage takers families and kill a few then threw them on the leaders doorstep and told them in no uncertain terms that there entire families would be hunted and killed... . next day russian released.

Are you ready for that? These are not americans and this is war but are you as a american ready to do what ever it takes? If not be ready for 6 million deaths its next!



Curt

US Marine Corps

22 years

 

[Champane Flight]

Freedoms.

Sorry to say these days are just the begining of a long trying time for our nation. We may look back on this time and say why didn't we see it coming?Our freedoms as we have known are on the way out. We will conquer terorism,but at what price?I do not have any problem with them checking me out,I have nothing to hide(or do I). If they have a dislike for someone(different nationality,color,creed,ideaolgy,or opinion),they can and will take you out?War or no war,we must keep a careful eye on our leaders and bureacrecys(sp). In the name of the cause they still have NO right to infringe on my personal freedoms.



This situation is not a war YET. We have named this action "Infinite justice". Sounds to me like a police raid. No declaration of war. Our news media is calling it "Americas New War". What was the old one?The "War on Drugs"?You and the president may call it a war,but declaration has not been made. I can call the feud between myself and my neighbor a war it does not make it one.



I am sure we(Our troops) will be up to their behinds in alligators very soon. We need to concentrate our efforts on helping them and at the same time keeping an eye out for over zealous FBI,ATF,CIA,ATC,and local police. Just because somenes name is Hasad,doesen't automaticly make them a terorist. It may put them under suspision though. I don't believe any American will look at anyone with Arabic ties the same,sorry,you will have to understand.



Yes ,it will be a new war action,a highly mobile one,with no fronts,no such thing as collateral damage. The one thing that will be the same,there will be more deaths... ..... I know no one wants to hear that,but it is going to happen.

 

[joel]

"If they have a dislike for someone(different nationality,color,creed,ideaolgy,or opinion),they can and will take you out?War or no war,we must keep a careful eye on our leaders and bureacrecys(sp). In the name of the cause they still have NO right to infringe on my personal freedoms. "



Well said, CF. Well said. The same applies to everyone in this country. OK, let me rephrase that: everyone LEGALLY in this country. If you're here illegally and get caught, I fully support putting them on the next plane out.



"I am sure we(Our troops) will be up to their behinds in alligators very soon. We need to concentrate our efforts on helping them and at the same time keeping an eye out for over zealous FBI,ATF,CIA,ATC,and local police. Just because somenes name is Hasad,doesen't automaticly make them a terorist. It may put them under suspision though. I don't believe any American will look at anyone with Arabic ties the same,sorry,you will have to understand. "



The very reason the right to bear ams was included in the Constitution! Overzealous government. We need to support our government, military and law enforcement agencies. At the same time, we have to protect ourselves from overzealousness. It's a very fine line.



I guess we'll have to politely agree to disagree on the rounding up issue. Whatever you think, don't let America go away because of irrational fears, attack from outside... or INSIDE!

 

[nps]

Joel,



Perhaps you have been too caught up in your emotions to read my posts - you have yet to anwser the question. Don't understand this "rounding up issue" you talk about.



To repeat the question, do you think that ANYBODY of any race, creed, color, or national origin, caught after Sept 11 at the perimeter of a large military installation with maps of the installation should or should not be detained for an unspecified period of time?



In my book, that act constitutes a heavy dose of suspicion. At best they are guilty of extreme stupidity. But given current events they should be held until proven innocent. That's the way it works in war.



Are we at war? The enemy says so in both word and deed. So I guess it is up to us to either pick up the call, or put our heads in the sand. Alot of ways this looks alot like the Viet Cong enemy in terms of tactics, except now the 'jungle' is in our own yard.



You call it irrational fears. I call it prudence. We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[BK]

... . CGoyette

"For all... Lighten up on the constitition! (its perfect as is)"



Cant disagree with you, but the darn "lawyers" that get into the government have a field day with it and bend it.



Image if our forefathers that wrote the Consitution had a board like this to discuss it while they were writing it!!!! Think of all the lawyers we could shoot down with such insight into their writing!





Neil, Joel hadn't answered my question either...



"Which would you rather have happen:

A) You yourself or loved one be on the next plane that gets used as a flying bomb

OR

B) Have the feelings hurt of some person that looks like they are of the group waging this war (yes we are profiling now, check out your news) and is nervous and jittery that's on your plane... because that person was asked to get off and are taken off... "



But we know the answers... ..... it's only human nature...



History has showed us that our great nation has bent many of it's own "rules" to achieve the end results and , yes paid retrobution(sp?) for it later... . ...



... ... . it's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission... ... ...



Don't think for a minute that we aren't going to take lessons from the Russian's and Isreal on how to handle the terrorists. You wont hear about it, but that doesn't mean it won't happen.





Bob