Towing Accidents

[GooseHunter]

I just heard this second hand from a retired truck driver, and a long time RV'er who lives in the area of these incidents.



1. In Banning CA an RV being towed by a pickup was involved in an accident with injuries and a death. The CHP had the vehicles towed to a certified scale and weighed. The combination exceeded the GVW of the towing vehicle (pickup). Charges were brought against the pickup driver.



The injured/death families sued the driver of the pickup towing the RV. and won the case. Drivers insurance refused to pay for any costs of the accident due to the pickup being overweight.



The driver lost his house etc, AND he was convicted of the crime and is in prison for the death of the victim.



2. Second accident near Blythe CA involving an RV being towed by a pickup. The CHP had the combination towed to a scale and weighted. It also was over GVW, drivers insurance refused to pay, driver of pickup lost everything he owned in suit.



I have not double checked the validity of this information, just passing it on.



Has anyone on here heard of this?



Dean

 

[HBarlow]

Nothing but truck stop false rumors. Ignore them.

Every light truck and every RV website has the same rumors going around from time to time. The rumors always get people stirred up until calmer people quiet them down with reasoned information.

DOT enforces axle weights and gross vehicle weights not manufacturer's gross combined weight ratings. Manufacturer's gross combined weight ratings and towing ratings are based on some specification set and known only by that manufacturer that will provide satisfactory load starting and grade climbing performance without overheating in high ambient temperatures typical of summer weather. The ratings also take into consideration torque handling capability of the driveline and weight carrying capacity of the suspension. It also may effect warranty coverage in the event of failures. DOT does not know or care what the GCWR of a particular turck is and it is not an enforceable number.

Insurance companies cannot "refuse to pay" if the insured has paid his premiums as required and has not submitted false information to obtain coverage. An insurance company may settle the claim and cancel the policy afterwards but they can't simply refuse coverage on a vehicle or vehicles they insured because it was involved in an accident. If that were allowed by state insurance regulations few insurance companies would ever pay claims.

Having said this, a person who was injured by a pickup towing a load that was obviously too large and too heavy for the truck could certainly hire an ambulance chaser attorney and sue the RV owner. The injured party could also sue for damages in excess of insurance coverage. Many people carry only minimum liability to obtain registration. I consider that a very big mistake.

The truth is any person has the right to file a lawsuit against any other person for any reason at any time. It is up to the judge and the jury to decide if the case has merit.

I would not personally tow a large fifth wheel trailer with a srw pickup because I consider it less safe than a dually. Likewise I would not tow a large fifth wheel heavier than about 14,000 lbs. with a Ram 3500 dually because I consider them too heavy as well. Many people don't agree with me and do tow heavy with a srw or heavier than my own personal limits. That is their right and also their risk. It is not against any law to do that as long as no axle is overloaded and GVWR is not exceeded but, if I consider it too heavy a judge and jury might also.

 

[DMillard]

Caution to the side of safety makes a lot of sense to me. Why give a jury something to hang you with. Not to mention that a properly loaded rig is much nicer to operate.

Great info HBarlow, I've never had a 5th wheel but towing with my dually is way more safer than the srw I used to own. That rear end wiggle just made me uncomfortable.

 

[Bug Out]

Dodge 3500 with GVW 26K on side of vehicle

Harvey, your probably the one to answer this. I saw just yesterday a 2005 dodge 3500 2wd CTD 4dr RV transport P/U with 26000 GCVW on the door.



Who rates it at that and how do you do it? I know the dodge 3500 2005 like mine(4x4 4. 11 axles 6spd 4dr) is good for 23K GCWV or so. How do you up it?





Sorry of you've answered this already.

 

[HBarlow]

Good question. The simple answer is by paying higher registration fees.

The GCWR figure published by the manufacturer is based on their internal standards for load starting and grade climbing ability, cooling system performance while loaded, torque handling capability of driveline components, and warranty issues. It is not a legally enforceable number and nobody but the manufacturer, if under warranty, cares.

DOT has no idea what Dodge says a particular Ram with a particular transmission and rear end can tow and doesn't care. All DOT cares about is registered weight first, then tire/axle load limits. If the load exceeds a gross combined weight of 26,000 lbs. , even 26,001 lbs. includes a trailer weighing more than 10k, and is for hire or commercial activity such as a landscaper, the driver must have a CDL and comply with DOT regulations.

If the gross combined weight does not exceed 26k, the driver does not have to have a CDL but cannot exceed actual or rated weight of 26k. This means that a non-CDL driver cannot drive a truck with a GVWR of 12,500 lbs. pulling a trailer with a GVWR of 14,000 lbs. even if the trailer is dry and empty and weighs only 12,500 on the scales. DOT enforces rated and actual weights for non-CDL drivers, only actual weights for CDL drivers.

My '01 and '06 were registered for 26,000 lbs. when I was transporting. Tax clerks thought I was nuts but I insisted.

The professional RV transporters register their trucks for 26,000 lbs. because his registration has to cover the truck and trailer. The new trailer he is pulling from the factory is not registered and no road tax/registration fees paid so the truck must cover it. This varies between states.

With a CDL a driver could register his truck for 30k or even 40k depending on how his state registers trailers. Some drivers are pulling gooseneck tandem dual wheel flatbeds for hotshotter service or hauling backhoes so they can justify and need at least 32k if the trailer doesn't have a separate weight fee paid.

Is everyone confused now?

Private use RVs are exempted from CDL requirements and generally speaking, load limits. However. Texas and several other states now require Class A operater licenses for heavy fifth wheels and motorhomes. The test is very similar to a CDL A.

 

[RVTRKN]

1) Not clear as to GCVWR by Manufacture or over AWR



2) 26K GCVW is OK when registered properly



3) Commercial insurance of at least 500K in liabilty.



4) Non Commercial insurance will decline to pay.

 

[jelag]

"""Harvey, your probably the one to answer this. I saw just yesterday a 2005 dodge 3500 2wd CTD 4dr RV transport P/U with 26000 GCVW on the door"""

We ran our 04, 3500 dually towing a 22K lb trailer... . we were way over the 26K above...

We had DOT #'s and had a commercial driver behind the wheel... we did this for over 250K miles before we retired the trailer and use the truck in town... .

The trailer's GVW was 24K as name plated and we were always under that... . several times they would weight each axle, check the tires and their rating and we had a lot of safety checks... . but it always passed... .

Commercial plates in WA with the correct rating and driver.....

 

[RVTRKN]

Jim, here in California you must declare and pay for the operating GCVW/GVW when registering. Was it a 3"sq label/sticker with 26 in the middle? Did it have Calif tags? If you look at the big rigs from Calif. , they will have the #80, representing 80K GCVW. It is just another tax increase here in California. They started this in 06 or 05 I believe. The sticker must be on both sides of the truck on the door or clearly seen anywhere on the side of the truck, and you have to pay for a separate year tag that is stuck onto the 3" label/sticker every year, like you have for the lic. plates. This is only for true commercial operation, not just any regular pickup.



example: $600. 00 reg plus weight fee

+ 10. 00 for tags

 

[Loren]

... Drivers insurance refused to pay for any costs of the accident due to the pickup being overweight.



The driver lost his house etc, AND he was convicted of the crime and is in prison for the death of the victim.



2. Second accident... It also was over GVW, drivers insurance refused to pay, driver of pickup lost everything he owned in suit.



I have not double checked the validity of this information, just passing it on.



Has anyone on here heard of this?



Dean

Dean,



Have you ever heard of an insurance company refusing to pay for an accident caused by a drunk driver who was their customer? How about a customer who runs a stop sign and kills someone? In both of those examples the insurance company’s customer broke a law and caused damage.



The insurance company may never insure you again, but they will pay.



– Loren

 

[RVTRKN]

Dean,



Have you ever heard of an insurance company refusing to pay for an accident caused by a drunk driver who was their customer? How about a customer who runs a stop sign and kills someone? In both of those examples the insurance company’s customer broke a law and caused damage.



The insurance company may never insure you again, but they will pay.



– Loren

Not if your hauling commercial with regular auto insurance.

 

[Deleted member 995608]

In California, an RV endorsement is required for the following:



Bumper pull RV trailer weighing 10,001 lbs or more



Fifth wheel RV trailers weighing 15,000 lbs or less.



Fifth wheel trailers weighing 15,001 lbs or more, or for those requesting to tow a (BOAT) behind the 5'ver require a Non-Commericial Class A.



k

 

[Loren]

Not if your hauling commercial with regular auto insurance.

That’s a very good point. If you read your regular insurance policy, I’ll bet it has a line or two that specifically exclude insurance for commercial towing.



This is an excellent reason for taking the time and effort to read and understand your policy.



– Loren

 

[CBari]

"DOT has no idea what Dodge says a particular Ram with a particular transmission and rear end can tow and doesn't care. All DOT cares about is registered weight first, then tire/axle load limits. If the load exceeds a gross combined weight of 26,000 lbs. , even 26,001 lbs. includes a trailer weighing more than 10k, and is for hire or commercial activity such as a landscaper, the driver must have a CDL and comply with DOT regulations. "



The part about commercial activity is what gets lots a people around here. Commercial activity is up the decesion of the officer, and we have a couple of local DOT's that think dirt track hobby racing or any horse event were you pay an entry fee is commercial.

 

[HBarlow]

An insurance policy does normally contain an exemption clause if the insured vehicle is used for a commerical purpose and an insurance company CAN refuse to pay however, it is not certain that they will. In fact, IMO it is unlikely that the insurance company will refuse to pay.

I was an insurance adjuster for a well known big insurer for one miserable year about 15 years ago. The company paid numerous claims against my recommendation when the policy had been allowed to lapse by non-payment of premiums and the insured has received formal notification of cancellation by registered mail.

Refusing coverage is not as simple as some people think. An insurance company is regulated by state insurance bureaucracies acting on the state legislature's wishes. Insurance companies often don't want to run afoul of state bureaucrats, even when their position is clear and legitimate.

Also, working for an insurance company is interesting. They think of money somewhat like the federal government does. They deal in large dollar amounts. A policy with a coverage limit of $100k is a lot of money to me and to most people but not to an insurance company. An insurance company will often write a check and pay up to policy limit, even when not obligated to pay, because they don't want bad publicity, a lawsuit they have to fight in court, or the risk of getting crossways with state insurance regulators.

My guess is that if the insured has been insured by that company for many years and has an accident causing damage or injury to a third party, even while operating commercially with ordinary private insurance, the insurance company will pay and cancel the policy to avoid the potential problems.

Regarding the post above about local DOT deciding what is commercial and what is not . . . racing activity is often considered commercial by DOT because prizes can be won. Far more people get away with hauling for commercial purposes without proper registration and licenses than are ticketed for being illegal.

 

[AfterBurner]

"DOT has no idea what Dodge says a particular Ram with a particular transmission and rear end can tow and doesn't care. All DOT cares about is registered weight first, then tire/axle load limits. If the load exceeds a gross combined weight of 26,000 lbs. , even 26,001 lbs. includes a trailer weighing more than 10k, and is for hire or commercial activity such as a landscaper, the driver must have a CDL and comply with DOT regulations. "



The part about commercial activity is what gets lots a people around here. Commercial activity is up the decesion of the officer, and we have a couple of local DOT's that think dirt track hobby racing or any horse event were you pay an entry fee is commercial.

That's why I always tell them I'm going on a trail ride or just visiting friends!

If you did get a ticket for it, and it was just a hobby, show the judge your IRS tax return to prove that you have no taxable income from hauling, so how can it be considered a commercial venture.



Also CDL requirement is not based on weight, though it seems to be what troopers base their enforcement off of. In TX you can have a class C CDL which is for a vehicle under 26,001 and not pulling over 10,001 lbs. Maybe we all need CDLs to go to work where we make money...

 

[HBarlow]

Also CDL requirement is not based on weight, though it seems to be what troopers base their enforcement off of. In TX you can have a class C CDL which is for a vehicle under 26,001 and not pulling over 10,001 lbs. Maybe we all need CDLs to go to work where we make money...

That statement is misleading and not entirely correct.

The need for a CDL is primarily based on whether the motor vehicle is used for commercial activity but weights determine the class of CDL required.

Most folks are not even aware of a Class B (passenger bus) or Class C which is for passengers and hazmat.

If the vehicle or combination of vehicles are used in commercial activity AND the trailer weighs more than 10k lbs. and the combination exceeds rated weight or actual weight of 26,000 lbs. the driver must have a CDL class A license.

A driver driving a single vehicle grossing more than 26k, towing a vehicle weighing less than 10k, or carrying 24 passengers including driver must have a CDL Class B.

A CDL Class C is required for vehicles transporting fewer than 23 passengers or hazardous materials.

 

[gerry]

liability for over weight rigs

If the driver were drunk and reckless the insurance would pay, and as stated previously, the driver would in all probabilty be canceled after his/her insurance paid. The same goes here. And as to the driver being sued and lose everything, it ain't very likely because if someone found themselves in that position their lawyer would file bankruptcy and the defendant would be able to keep I believe it is 66k equity plus car etc. It makes for a good story and I'll bet whoever perpetrates it will never be able to name a person or place. BS! On the other hand if it can be shown the rig was clearly operated over loaded that would be construed as negligence to be sure.

 

[MJReynolds]

In California, an RV endorsement is required for the following:

Bumper pull RV trailer weighing 10,001 lbs or more

Fifth wheel RV trailers weighing 15,000 lbs or less.

Fifth wheel trailers weighing 15,001 lbs or more, or for those requesting to tow a (BOAT) behind the 5'ver require a Non-Commericial Class A.

k

One change needed for this info. In California a non-commercial Class A is required when the trailer GVWR's are as given above. The actual weight isn't the issue it's the rated weight that they go by. A buddy of mine has a trailer with a GVWR of 10,500 lbs and he should have a non-commercial Class A license even though the trailer only weighs about 9,000 lbs when he's towing. He hasn't bothered getting the Class A but if he were stopped he could be cited for not having the proper license.

 

[HBarlow]

One change needed for this info. In California a non-commercial Class A is required when the trailer GVWR's are as given above. The actual weight isn't the issue it's the rated weight that they go by. A buddy of mine has a trailer with a GVWR of 10,500 lbs and he should have a non-commercial Class A license even though the trailer only weighs about 9,000 lbs when he's towing. He hasn't bothered getting the Class A but if he were stopped he could be cited for not having the proper license.

This is true. It is worth repeating because many drivers don't know or understand this detail.

If the driver does NOT HAVE a CDL DOT enforcement is based on rated weight ie GVWR stickers on tow vehicle and trailer added together or actual weight across the scales.

If the driver does HAVE a CDL GVWR stickers are of no concern, only scaled weight matters.