Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) truck out of shop, still not fixed....

[paulsmith]

First, let me say I acted on the advice of people in this group, and bought a set of F1 injectors. Mach 1. I had a professional diesel injection servce install them. At first they said they would just be the marine injectors, but when he looked he agreed, they are custom injectors.



They made a HUGE differance. Now the truck is more powerful than my 97!



But, the problem was a dead miss when cold, with LOTS of smoke. The shop installed a new lift pump, new lift pump relay, new overflow valve, set the valves, and checked everything. The dead miss is gone. It now just "stumbles" when cold, (sounds like bad ignition in a car) and blue smoke bad for about 40 to 60 seconds.



The shop did not have the adaptor to check compression. Bosch phone techs said engine is toast. Shop used a infared gun and check temps. at each cylinder and said numbers 1, 2, and 6 are "cooler" than the rest during the warm up smoking, indicating they are not firing as well as the others.



I do get some blow by on this engine. I am not sure what it is supposed to have on the front, but it has a vent tube, goes up, then points down, and it smokes from there some. (I have heard mention of a bottle, but dont know what that is) Hard to see the smoke with it running, but sometimes you can see/smell it coming from under the hood of the truck. Also get oil down the side, on the rear fender, but but not sure if that is it, or the front seal is leaking.



I really wanted him to check compression... Hard to belive at 177,000 miles the engine is shot. It starts instantly, and runs strong. My 97 has 225,000 and runs like new, and my 96 has 330,000 and runs better than new (and much faster than this 2001 "HO")



Paul Smith

2001 3500 Dually 6 speed HO

 

[csutton7]

maybe you have some bad injectors that aren't popping off--it's possible---can you borrow some and pull yours and put in the borrowed ones----chris

 

[Mundgyver]

Something does not sound right to me. You need to get a compression check done at the least. I have blow-by also and I can see it when I come to a stop. My breather has been dropped down low where I can get to it, but blow-by is not an issue with me. Have you ever had the VP replaced or checked, meaning off of the truck I am curious



I would like to know what you compression is and what your lift pump psi is at idle and at mid wot and wot.



What other mods do you have.

 

[Fishin Guide]

Always check the simple things first. Did they get the original washers out with the old injectors? Did new washers go in with the new sticks? Could there be a bent or nicked crossover tube? You say it does this cold, how cold? Is itjust the 3 clyinder cold start working? Are your grid heaters working?



Also, cylce the key on to off 3 times ending in the on position. Get all the codes. I mean, watch it until the odometer appears again.



And post those codes here. To replace a lift pump ect without some knowledge that is definately bad means that low pressure may have taken out the VP. But get the codes and see i something pops up.

 

[paulsmith]

Thanks for the replies!



First, this shop seems to be very good. They work on Dodge Cummins engines daily, but only the injection. They are the shop all the other shops take there injection pumps to for service. VERY knowledgeable about the issues with the VP44. They have been around for 30 years.



This in not really a diesel repair shop, The name is "Illinois Valley Diesel Injection Service" and the specialize in Diesel injection. They had P7100 and VP44 pumps stacked on the shelf behind the counter (along with all types of other pumps), with them cut apart for display on the counter. Newer building, very clean, and bright, and organized.



I took it to him to install the new injectors I purchased, and look it over for trouble. He normally runs a compression check, but when he opened the "box" the one adapter he needed to check the 24 valve was gone... He loans tools to the local repair shops, and it must have been out on loan. I needed the truck back, and he did not know when the adapter would be returned (it was not signed out, as it should have been). I told him to close it up, and "we will see" as I needed to make a run this weekend. He did set the valves.



Just trying to put this shop into perspective.



He installed the new injectors as I asked. Then went straight to the lift pump. I asked what pressure, he said Bosch specs a flow, not pressure. The pump did not work at all... .



Found lift pump relay bad. Replaced relay. Pump now ran. He said Bosch specs only flow, not pressure. I think he said Bosch requires 40 OZ per minute, and it pumped 11 OZ. (not sure of the spec, but remember it was 11 OZ)



So, my lift pump was not working... . He explained that this has been known to damage the VP44, but you will get a code (215??? I think he said) but no codes... .



He has a Bosch tech that works with him, and access to a large Bosch Data Base. Neither of these gave any info. He mentioned a "scuffed armature" within the pump, that might cause this erratic misfire, but Bosch said you would get a code which this truck has none.



He suspected a faulty return valve, and replaced that. Much improved, but not right. Not sure what caused the DEAD MISS before, but it is now more of a stumble at idle, like the "tone" fluctuates, and the tach moves a bit.



Ticket says:

"Replace NHA'S per customer instructions. Lift pump delivered 1/2 of specified volume, operates intermittently, drains back. Set valves, all looser than spec. Replaced overflow valve per SB to Elminate white smoke. "



Again, he said, no codes, no indications of any fuel problem. He also said he finds it hard to beleave that it is the engine. It starts with the touch of the key, and runs very strong when warm.



Also, before, the truck would run dead even with my stock 97, pulling th same loads, side by side. Now with the new Mach 1 injectors it is much faster, and pulls better down low.



I think I do get more blow buy than my 12 valves. This engine just has a u shaped pipe on the front cover, while the 12 valve has a straight pipe down the side. Oil use on the 24 valve is about one gallon between changes, but it is mainly a leak, as I get oil on the front of my trailers and on the side of the truck and rear fenders. Just not sure if it a front main, or the blow tube. Hard to shut the truck down (and I will be busy for the next few months!) and I really dont like the local shops for engine repair. I know, just an excuse to not get it fixed, but a gallon of oil every 3000 is not too expensive, and keeps my truck from rusting... .

 

[paulsmith]

Well, the "dead miss" is back. (if it was ever really gone) I mean "fop, fop, fop", and the smoke "puffs" with it. One more thing. It does it hot or cold. If you shut the engine down, and restart it after 10 minutes, it does the same smoke/miss, just does it longer when it is cold.



I will try to get the truck back in the shop by the end of the week, but will be taking it to the diesel repair shop that is more of a truck shop, (not real impressed with their trouble shooting skills) for a $220 compression test.



2001 6 Speed HO, 177,000 miles



REcap:

new Mach 1 injectors (more power!)

new overflow valve

New lift pump

New lift pump relay

Valves set

No codes

Runs good after the first mile or so, but misses and smokes like crazy for the first mile

 

[SnoKing]

So have them try another set of injectors. SNOKING

 

[paulsmith]

The truck was put in the shop because it was doing this, so we replaced the injectors (and other things) with a new set of Mach 1's. No change or improvement. The new set of injectors did not cause this problem, they were replaced in a attempt to fix it.

 

[blacksheepdiesel]

Paul,

Don't know about the particular symptoms you are describing but I do know that the VP44 can be GOING bad and not throw codes. My VP trouble started with the dead pedal symptom for a few weeks and there were no codes. When I finally replaced the VP at 400,000 the code had finally been set.



From what you said I would guess the dead lift pump started the downhill slide on the VP. Did they put a scan tool on to check the VP?



Trent

 

[SnoKing]

The truck was put in the shop because it was doing this, so we replaced the injectors (and other things) with a new set of Mach 1's. No change or improvement. The new set of injectors did not cause this problem, they were replaced in a attempt to fix it.

OK, missed that part. SNOKING

 

[Fishin Guide]

Do the compression test. And a leak down test would be nice *** well. It's possible that you have a bad valve/ seat or a slight leak in the head gasket.



Dave

 

[paulsmith]

They did scan it, and got no codes. The shop kept trying to find what cause this, but kept coming up with no codes, and no help from Bosch except: "we have never heard of this symptom... no codes, no problem. Your engine is toast. "



My wife is driving it today. 900 mile round trip pulling 7000# stack of flatbed trailers. Says it is running good, until she shuts it off and re-starts it.

 

[C.Solomon]

My friends 94 does that same thing (blue smoke, miss, stumble) but he has a leaking fuel heater. When his truck warms up its fine.



Maybe you have checked this but I would check for fuel or air leaks in your fuel lines. A pin hole in a fuel line can cause a diesel to run like crap.

 

[Nate]

My truck does the same as you describe. Smokes like that as well, maybe not quite that bad though. When it decides to stop running, I'll fix it then.