Turbine Housing Removal Woes

[JHolt]

Okay, I'm trying to remove the stock, fat 21 cm2 turbine housing so I can put on a new 16 cm2 housing and make this old dog come alive a little bit. The old one appears to be rusted solid onto the rest of the turbo and I can't get it off. I ended up taking the whole turbo assembly off the truck so I could work with it, and I've used PB penetrant for a couple of days to no avail. Tapping pretty hard with a hammer doesn't do anything. A while back I remember reading about some tricks to get these apart, but I can't find it in the archive. Anybody have any ideas that don't involve mail ordering special tools or penetrants? I need to get this back together soon because I'm supposed to drive the truck to CA this weekend. I REALLY don't want to put it back on with the 21 cm2 housing.



Thanks,

Jack

 

[AlK]

Jack,

As you back out the four bolts that hold the hot end to the turbo put something between the end of one of the bolts and the turbo then turn the bolt out a bit then go diagonaly to the other bolt and do the same thing, repeat this process with the other two bolts. Keep repeating this process and eventually the bolts will force the two units apart. Go easy and it will work.

---

Al

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

That's exactly the method I used to get mine apart. Use the bolts, as they back out, as leverage. After doing each bolt a couple times, give the housing a wack at the "4 points of the compass" and then return to using the bolts with a spacer against the turbo body. It'll come off slowly but surely.



When you re-assemble the housing, use a small bit of anti-sieze compound on the joint/surface to prevent this from happening again. Don't forget to put a bit on the bolts too.



bob.

 

[Paychk]

My $0. 02



Anti-seize comes in many different flavors so to speak, but the highest temp rating is for the type that contains nickel. It is rated to 2400 degrees F. and will do an excellent job when and if you ever need to separate the housings in the future.

 

[XGoldman]

Been there, done that, got grease on the T-shirt!

I didn't have much luck using the stock bolts to seperate the housings. Using info from the guys here, I made up some "mini jacks" using 7mm bolts, nuts, washers, and 1/4" drive sockets(as spacers). The sockets were just the ticket. In the "collapsed position the sockets covered the bolt end so that I could fit the jacks in between the housings but they insured that I would have at lease 1/2" of lift. I placed the jacks between the housings and started to slowly tighten. I really was unsure about lifting against the aluminum plate(just inside the clamp ring) and it did mark the plate a little. But with a little faith and a lot of PB Blaster my housings came apart just fine

 

[JHolt]

Thanks, guys. That's just the kind of info I was hoping for. I tried it late last night with the stock bolts, but couldn't reach one of the bolt heads with the wrench when using a spacer that big. I'll get longer bolts today so I can use smaller spacers, and/or try the "mini jack" method with some sockets. I guess you have to cut the heads off some long bolts to do that.



One potential problem is that two of the stock bolts won't even come out all the way because they run into the bearing housing. The surfaces they hit are sloped so I can't use those (very well) to push against. They hit where the oil feed and return lines attach. So I can use only two of the threaded holes for pushing, but at least they are on opposite sides, maybe that's good enough.



Thanks for the tip on the high-temp anti-seize, Alan. I was wondering if there was anti-seize that would survive those temperatures. Hopefully a local shop will have some.



Thanks again... if all goes well I should have it apart tonight and will be trying out the 16cm2 housing tomorrow!



Jack

 

[Case500D]

Another Idea

Here is another idea to help you out. It originally came from Piers I think. JFitgerald and I both used it with much success. Bolt the turbo back onto the exhaust manifold. Loosen the bolts that hold the exhaust housing on about two turns. Take your favorite BFRH (big freakin' rubber hammer) and tap (okay maybe beat) on the compressor side of the turbo. This will help break the hot end loose. JFitgerald's turbo came apart easily, but mine took a while. Don't be suprised if it doesn't seem to move much at first, but be sure to keep turning the shaft to so the housing comes off square and doesn't hurt the exhaust turbine. I even installed the new exhaust housing onto the manifold and then put the compressor side of the turbo back on. If you do get anything out of square, use the 4 little bolts to draw everything back together until the shaft turns freely. I hope this helps. Don't forget the never sieze. You will like the 16 cm housing



Jeremy

 

[Bfulgham]

Jack: Cant add much to all the good info. you got but sure would be a good time to drill and tap for a pre-turbo EGT connection. Did mine while I had it off. I didnt know about the back-off method and used a LARGE hammer and much beating but finally came off.

Bob F.

 

[Dfeland]

The method that I used was to take my torch and carefully heat the housing up until it was cherry(this was after the bolts were removed) and then the housing practically fell off. Just a thought.

 

[JFitzgerald]

Originally posted by Bfulgham

Jack: Cant add much to all the good info. you got but sure would be a good time to drill and tap for a pre-turbo EGT connection. Did mine while I had it off. I didnt know about the back-off method and used a LARGE hammer and much beating but finally came off.

Bob F.

Good point about tapping for the thermocouple, Bob. I did the same. No worries about chips in the turbo.

 

[JHolt]

I'm all set to drill and tap the manifold for the thermocouple, and have a plug to fill the hole on the downpipe (where the probe is located now). Thanks for mentioning it though.



I like the torch idea... if I just had my torch with me, and had the bottles filled, I'd probably try that.



Found some metric studs today, though, so I will give the mini-jack method a try, and might bolt it back on the exhaust manifold just to have the thing mounted firmly. My workshop is 30 miles from here, so I am frustrated by the lack of a workbench, vise, etc. Somehow the idea of hammering on the compressor side doesn't sit well with me, but I do have my BFRH!



I could only find 1600 deg F anti-seize at the parts store, but I'm gonna check another place.



Thanks again for the input,

Jack

 

[Paychk]

Loctite # 77124 for the 2400F anti-seize, you may have to order it. The other should work fine, I just like a little insurance after I whaled the tar out of mine with the BFH, to get it off.

 

[R.E. Miller]

JHolt,

Let me sum this up for you here. I have been in your shoes before, and I know the feeling. Tapping, lightly, and warming do not apply here. Most people use words like this so you don't get your biggest hammer, and get carried away. I have changed over three turbos, and deal with them at work, they are not easy.

For your turbo, I would attack it like this.

1. Simple, and easy, use MAPP gas to heat the area where the turbine housing mates to the bearing housing. I normally use big leather gloves to handle the thing while doing this. Quenching the area where the two meet with a quality penetrating oil after heating is a must. If you have time, I would repeat this process as much as you can; this will only help you.

2. Use the two bolts you cannot get out to help you. Run them into the bearing housing and keep tension on them. Periodically re-tighten them as you proceed.

3. Now, tapping is nice on a new turbo, but for most you will need a hand sledge, and a good heavy duty punch to focus the impact on areas of the housing. It really takes a lot of slamming to break the two loose on some, but if you can soak it and heat it, your work will be a lot easyier. When you get it loose, this is when you must be careful with the hammer. The housing must come off even, so that the blades do not get damaged. So if it gets a little off, just beat the thing back until the blades will spin again. It is a lot like parallel parking a jet at times, and is just time consuming



If you need help let me know.



Russell

 

[JHolt]

Anybody need a 21 cm housing (yard art?)

I got that sucker off!! And I do admit to using a hand sledge. The BFRH just wasn't cuttin it. I didn't have anything to preheat it with, so I just used the studs with nuts, washers, and sockets, and also kept turning those other two bolts out when I could. SLOW is the operative word for sure!! It took a lot of careful maneuvering to keep the blades from binding. But it's off and everything seems to be okay.



Now I have an installation question, perhaps minor... The exhaust manifold gasket that came with my kit (the gasket between the turbine housing and the exhaust manifold, with four bolts) does NOT have two holes like the exhaust manifold itself, or the turbine housing for that matter. Just one large hole that encompasses both. Does this matter? I don't know if it's a Cummins part, or something else. It matches fine otherwise. Seems a little strange to leave a thin gap there between the two exhaust ports, but perhaps it is not significant. Did any of you run into this switch in gasket design?



Jack



p. s. the original gasket has two separate openings.

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

WOW it's OFF... ... this really is a team sport .....

Glad you got it off successfully, and you're right, the real trick is "don't bend the turbine vanes... very bad"...

Good on ya bud.

As for the gasket, mine had 4 individual holes, I'd double check that one. I'd also hazard a guess that so long as they do not impinge on the 'fire ring' around the exhaust outlet port(s) you should be ok, but get confirmation on that.

Last, high temp anti-sieze is a must, I used stuff made for boilers from my days on boiler shutdowns. It works great.



Good luck... Bob.

 

[JLEONARD]

The gasket I got with my new Holset turbo has only the one large hole as you describe.

I used it and it does not leak externally, but I don't know what's happening in the gap internally.

I also bought a turbo rebuild kit (before I took my old one apart) and that gasket also had the one large hole.

All those products are Holset originals.

 

[JHolt]

Team sport for sure! Couldn't have done it without you guys helping!! Many thanks. This forum is awesome!! [And of course, I wouldn't have even KNOWN about changing the housing if it hadn't been for the TDR!]



Bob, there are 4 holes for the bolts that hold the turbo to the exhaust manifold, it's the exhaust port holes that I was trying to describe (wish I had a digital camera... my rambling would have made a lot more sense with just a picture!). There are two ports on the manifold, and two matching ones on the turbine housing, but the gasket just has one big opening in the middle that encompasses both of them.



Aha, I just saw JLeonard's reply and sounds like I don't have some sort of Chinese gasket substitute. If Holset sends em that way, I imagine it must be okay. Thanks!



Jack

 

[JFitzgerald]

Turbo Gasket

For what it's worth, my turbo gasket had the divider down the middle, which was from Piers. Case500D's was also split I believe, and he got his from a different source, Scheid Diesel, I think?

 

[JLEONARD]

I guess I should tell the whole story... .

When I bought my 16 cm housing in March, it came with the divided gasket. The housing and gasket were in a Holset box.

The rebuild kit and the new turbo came with the undivided gasket... all Holset original parts.

Now... . it may be my imagination because this is hard to put my finger on exactly, but it seems like the new turbocharger, assembleed with the undivided gasket, with the same 16 cm housing, does not spool up as fast as the old turbo did.

Could this be due to poor exhaust gas flow at the manifold/turbo housing interface because of the undivided gasket?

Or is it because the new turbo has tighter bearing clearance?

Any thoughts out there? (Maybe not worth thinking about?)

 

[Case500D]

Gasket

My gasket was from Scheid Diesel here in Lafayette. It was in a Cummins package. I don't think it really matters. Just make sure when you put the gasket on to have the little ridge pointing towards the turbo. One of my tractyors has a turbo on it and uses a gasket without the seperation in it. Hope this helps.



Jeremy