ULSD and Cloud Point

[MFalkinham]

Minus 15 degrees this morning. I currently have a full 40-gallon tank of Amoco mixed with an entire 64oz bottle of Howes plus half of a 96oz bottle of PS. My Walbro fuel pump pressures are staying normal to above normal, ranging from 20-30psi.

But, I do agree with steved that Howes doesn't seem to work well with ULSD. I'm going to stick with PS from now on.

 

[RSarvie]

-25F This morning...

Here's some pics with that fuel at -25F, still fluid. Appeared the water or wax was solidifying out of the fuel and sticking to the side of the bottle when I sloshed it around a bit, no doubt would give some filters a workout I'm sure. Can see it in the upright pic on the sides of the top part of the bottle.



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I found this weekend that my fuel is doing the same thing... it is so thick that the FASS is having to really strain to pump it (I have no doubt the OE pump would have choked by now). Trying to push that thick fuel through a 1 micron HF6604 isn't helping either!!

That's why I haven't changed out from my 6607 yet! I thought the 6604 was 3 micron???

I was looking at these but it would be a summer project. Still would rather have something to heat the housing of the water separator personally, but anything that will get the job done even if it's a temporary deal to get through the few days or weeks we get these temps a year, as well as get me off the mountain when snowmobiling out west.

 

[steved]

Here's some pics with that fuel at -25F, still fluid. Appeared the water or wax was solidifying out of the fuel and sticking to the side of the bottle when I sloshed it around a bit, no doubt would give some filters a workout I'm sure.

Brown fuel?? Mine's been green?? Additive causing that??



steved

 

[RSarvie]

It is green when normal!!! I'll bring it in, warm it up and take a pic... .



This looks a little better now, cleared up. I think the sun I was trying to use to highlight the cloudiness actually made it look a little more brown, as even the warm fuel looks a little dingy when in at the right angle to the sun.



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[Gary - K7GLD]

I also found that even triple dosing Howe's Diesel Treat does very little.

A short while back, I bought several bottles of Howe's at a Flying J - later checking the labels, I see there was a label change at some point, and one of the bottles included the statement it was "Specially formulated for use with ULSD", or something similar.



I wonder if perhaps the newer stuff WILL work better with ULSD, and some guys having problems are using the older stock?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I've been re-thinking about plumbing a coolant line to my FASS or something now to warm up the fuel in extreme conditions. Saw a 150W stick on heater pad maybe to put on the water separator of the FASS, 120v however. I did a test and ran it off an inverter for a while and it warmed up. Something to get you through in extreme temps in a pinch? Or a heated fuel line maybe? I don't know, brainstorming a little.



Been reading on the fuel system a little and understand there is a return fuel line coming from the VP, as well as the injectors. Does anybody know how warm this return fuel is? Warm enough to de-gell/cloud the rest of the fuel in the tank once you get going? Don't have my stock fuel filter/heater canister hooked up anymore. Ideas???

The returned fuel is considerably warmer than the supply side - you might consider obtaining some copper tubing to install next to the supply side line, wrap the pair with insulating tape, and reroute the return line fuel flow thru that for winter operation - could be a big help in pre-warming the supply side fuel flow...

 

[steved]

It is green when normal!!! I'll bring it in, warm it up and take a pic... .



This looks a little better now, cleared up. I think the sun I was trying to use to highlight the cloudiness actually made it look a little more brown, as even the warm fuel looks a little dingy when in at the right angle to the sun.

That still looks brown... the stuff I pump is bright green! Must be the camera...



Gary - the Howe's I'm using is for ULSD. And even at double dose (half a quarter bottle for 20 gallons), it still gives me trouble...



steved

 

[RSarvie]

The returned fuel is considerably warmer than the supply side - you might consider obtaining some copper tubing to install next to the supply side line, wrap the pair with insulating tape, and reroute the return line fuel flow thru that for winter operation - could be a big help in pre-warming the supply side fuel flow...

Thanks Gary, Ill look into something like that as an option. I'm going to drop a thermometer probe into the tank and take several reading before, during, and after some operation here sometime and see if just normal operation warms things up any, and if so how much, and with what fuel levels. Preferrably do it during the evening/night when the ambient temps are steady or slowly dropping.



From what I understood, the reason additives had to be ULSD labeled and compliant was to show using them properly would not add more than 15ppm sulfer into your fuel, thus being EPA and 2007 MY compatible. Not necessarily meant "reformulated" to anti-gel ULSD as well as it did LSD.

Here's what Power Service says...

Prevents fuel gelling in temperatures as low as -40°F..... Contains anti-icing additives — protects against fuel-filter icing... ... Effective in all diesel fuels, including ULSD and biodiesel blends containing up to 20% biodiesel (B20)

Until somebody reports they have been operating in those environments with my specific fuel system set up, I guess I'll have to take their words for it? I think we're the subjects of a lot of "trial by fire" here with these fuel changes going on, especially here in MN with the knee jerk 2% Bio deal.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Thanks Gary, Ill look into something like that as an option. I'm going to drop a thermometer probe into the tank and take several reading before, during, and after some operation here sometime and see if just normal operation warms things up any, and if so how much, and with what fuel levels. Preferrably do it during the evening/night when the ambient temps are steady or slowly dropping.

I'm pretty sure Bob Weis (rweis) did some measurements and testing of return line fuel temps in his VP-44 cooling thread:



http://turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135952



- and as I recall the temperature differential was substantial and quite rapid. I currently monitor the fuel temp returned from the VP-44 alone, and even that on a pump that gets lots of supplemental cooling will run from 10 to 30 degrees higher than the incoming fuel - the added return fuel from the injector lines will add considerably to that. Plus, it's free heat, and available as soon as the engine starts running.

 

[JLEONARD]

I've been re-thinking about plumbing a coolant line to my FASS or something now to warm up the fuel in extreme conditions.



You could buy a "fuel cooler" that comes on many of the Cummins marine 6Bs... and run anti-freeze thru it. Normally they run raw water to cool the fuel... you would be heating it. Would be an easy bolt on/off.

 

[steved]

I've been re-thinking about plumbing a coolant line to my FASS or something now to warm up the fuel in extreme conditions.



You could buy a "fuel cooler" that comes on many of the Cummins marine 6Bs... and run anti-freeze thru it. Normally they run raw water to cool the fuel... you would be heating it. Would be an easy bolt on/off.

The FASS has ports in the body for coolant... heating up the FASS would heat the fuel, and since the majority of the fuel run through the FASS is returned to the tank, it would warm the fuel in the tank as well...



Not saying you don't have a good idea, just that the FASS is already set up for coolant.



steved

 

[Turbo Tim 1]

Lets see if I can make this work, I've been doing some research about locally available diesel fuel and have come up with some interesting information, actually scary information. Check out this quote from Jeff Kramer, VP of sales at Power Service

In a recent Overdrive magazine article, Jeff Kramer, vice president of sales for Power Service Products, stated that he believes the big ULSD issue is the fact that “blending with No. 1 is going to be obsolete. ” Refineries are not going to make a lot of ULSD No. 1, so distributors won’t be able to blend it in with No. 2.

The east coast has ULSD Kerosene

"We’re seeing that ULSD is so different,” Kramer says. “With a shortage of No. 1, truckers need to make sure the fuel is winterized. They need to take the situation into their own hands. ” As a result, Kramer maintains that ULSD will need more anti-gel. “Operators will need to be proactive, as much as double treating to properly winterize their fuel in extreme temperatures. ”







ULSD will have a lot more wax because of the refining process. So, it will require more anti-gel to keep the wax from causing gellation. there used to be a temperature separation between the cloud point, cold filter plugging point and pour point. Now, they have almost merged. “There’s so much wax that once it hits the cloud point, it’s gelled. ”

This is interesting, cloud point and gell point are almost the same in ULSD, you can view this whole article here



I also found this specification chart from Sprague energy which supplies alot of the fuel to different stations around the area (NorthEast)



Sprague Chart



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[steved]

WOW, good info.



If that's the case, then I was really close to being stranded...



Looks like I need to stock up on antigel...



steved

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

YUP - all those high paid oil company research guys really did their best to look out for and "take care of the interests" of the consumers once again in a clearly obvious "fuel improvement" boondoggle... :-laf :-laf

"WHAT, you mean owners and drivers of diesel powered vehicles REALLY expect and need to drive their vehicles in below zero temps?



JEEZE, how were we expected to foresee and provide for THAT?"

LESSEE, how DO you spell "incompetent"?

 

[Schlickenmeyer]

Man do I hate being right. The Bio does indeed come out of solution in extreme temps. I got a call from my uncle who's friend has a carquest. never sold so much diesel stuff. tons of fuel filters, additives, etc. those who could get them started were lucky, and a number re gelled in 10 miles. I kept mine warm enough to run.

 

[MMiller]

My service truck has gelled up twice in the last two weeks on me. One time was with Power Service in the tank. Both times a water separator change and a full bottle of Howe's(part in the separator, rest in tank) and the truck ran the rest of the day. I've not had gelling problems in 14 of the last 15 years of driving diesels!!! Saturday I met with a local fuel supplier and we added straight #1 red fuel to my 45 gallon tank. We were able to get 20 gallons in it. Today at below 0 the truck started and ran. I almost believe it ran better with the #1 red in it then last week with #2 ULSD.



This new ULSD is crap in cold weather. I bit my tounge in the thread that Steved started, but my hunch was right..... It's not me or my truck, its the new fuel... .



Michael

 

[steved]

I am in contact with my local fuel stations about the specs of their fuel... some are really helpful (usually the ones who also supply home heating oil) and others are completely clueless (umm, winterized? What??)...



The one is telling me their fuel (marked LSD) is good to -35*F... so we shall see. It is a BP station that has Hyperfire (?) additive added at the rack.



You can tell the difference between treated fuel and non-treated fuel... my FASS strains to pump non-treated fuel, but as soon as you get even 10 gallons of treated fuel, it sounds like it does when it is 70*F outside!!!



I highly recommend that everyone do the same... contact your local stations to see what they know. If you don't get a fuzzy feeling in your conversations, you know it's probably not good.



steved

 

[Champane Flight]

Sounds like...

Our refinerys are still claiming -15 to -25 on our ULSD, I ran the tests myself and found close results, within a few degrees. I have no idea of your idividual areas, we have been in the deep freeze for the last month, I run a minimum level of additives, and have had NO problems. If you are having problems, additives are not a longterm answer, find a source for #1 diesel and blend it fifty/fifty.



If you have questions on your fuel specs, contact fuel terminals (ask tanker driver where he loads), they will give you the real info. Truckstops/7/11s/and local TDR members may be nice guys, but have not a clue.



The only difference I have seen in fuel going from LSD and ULSD is cetane levels, they have dropped considerable.