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ULSD and timing = cracked pistons?

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Easy question, I hope ?

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After seeing the 6 cracked pistons and one dropped valve seat in LEPage's engine, I am thinking that the rules have changed.

I mean, the ULSD has more cetane, which means it ignites faster.

What was once safe as far as EGT and timing advance, may no longer be the case. I have seen molten pistons before, which is caused by a short, quick, overfueling.

But 6 cracked pistons, with very little melting, speaks of long term knocking damage, which some people may not even be able to hear over the wind/muffler/stereo/tire noise at 70+ mph.



Higher cetane requires less timing advance to obtain the same combustion characteristics. So, until the manufacturers of the timing boxes respond, by dialing back the timing a little, be careful, and don't add cetane improver with a timing box. Use a lower timing setting, if you can.

(I only say this for the programmers/boxes, not the rokktech sensor, which is not advanced enough to cause damage, so don't PM me on that. ) The tone wheel mod depends on how far you advanced it, but again, if light knocking only occurs at low rpm/low loads, the likelyhood for damage is almost nil. It's the sustained high speed knocking that kills.

The EGT rule of 1200 or whatever was safe before, may need to be lowered a little with advanced timing, since the actual combustion temperature goes up with advanced timing, but the EGT stays the same. I think the valves are more sensitive to EGT, but the pistons/cylinders (including the oil film on the cyinders wall) are more sensitive to the peak and the average combustion temperatures. The peak temperatures may cause localized melting and cracking with an uneven firing injector, even if the average temperature/EGT looks normal.



Feel free to comment. :-{}
 
So if what you are saying is true, my 1100* post turbo temps on hard accelaration are really bad.



I am also using Stanadyne PF, with my Smarty.



I will keep an eye on this thread to see what others say.
 
betterthanstock.



I have pondered all of the theme of your post with regards to the ULSD fuel and it's effects on our engines. The EGT's seemed to me to be a key factor in the combustion of the ULSD, and I did notice that my EGT's rose slightly when the new fuel came into play. I use the PS additive with the winter gel additive because of the cold where I live, and of course, it also has cetane as an additive. I mix my PS with MMO, now you have me wondering about combustion temps even more. Since most will agree that their timing rattle at idle went away with the addition of 'something' regardless of brand, I wonder what/how this will effect combustion at higher RPM's? Since the rattle seems to be an issue with boxes at higher RPM's are we doing good or harm with our additives? I plan to use my Smarty with NO timing changes for that reason alone. Having it stacked with the Quad STD, which I believe DOES do some timing, now becomes my concern. I figured the timing changes could have an effect, just how much was the immediate concern. Having 2 boxes doing timing changes to me seemed like piston suicide, especially the #5 and #6 cyls since they already have the propensity for issues.



CD
 
Matt400 said:
How did you learn of the higher Cetane with ULSD and what numbers they actually are in various areas?



I tend to agree - actual cetane numbers varied all over the map with the LSD according to Bosch testing a couple of years ago on the west coast - has anything really changed, other than closer scrutiny at early production, and that too will likely relax once flow of the ULSD has settled down and inspections reduced.



Personally, I expect "business as usual" as far as fuel purity and cetane at the pump are concerned...
 
Prairie Dog said:
More cetane? I read that it has 1 to 2% less energy than regular diesel.

Chevron contends that BTU/gallon is down by ~1% but cetane is higher due to the reduction in aromatics in ULSD.



Rusty
 
I mean, the ULSD has more cetane, which means it ignites faster.



Not neccessarily true. Cetane is measure of how fast the fuel burns not neccessarily how fast it ignites. More is dependent on the injection timing than the cetane rating of the fuel when it comes to the ignition event. Unlike a gasser, pre-ignition and knock in a diesel is not a problem as there is no fuel to ignite until injection. The rattle, commonly referred to as timing rattle, is a result high in-cylinder pressures brought on by advanced injection timing not any type of pre-ignition.



Even though the fuel may burn faster the BTU rating is down so we are actually generating less heat than before for the same amount of fuel. That is made up by advancing the throttle and getting more fuel to generated the needed power.



How the timing is being effected is a good question as the ECU and/or boxes may not be reacting correctly and causing a problem. Since these systems were developed to run on 50 cetane and we are lucky to have a rating of 45 I have my doubts cetane is an issue.



Timing and power boxes, well, like anything else if it misused and misunderstood the results may be less than perfect. ;)
 
From Chevrons site:

CETANE NUMBER

Cetane Number is a measure of how readily the fuel starts to burn (autoignites) under diesel engine conditions. A fuel with a high cetane number starts to burn shortly after it is injected into the cylinder; it has a short ignition delay period. Conversely, a fuel with a low cetane number resists autoignition and has a longer ignition delay period.



So it stands to reason that higher Cetane numbers along with advanced injection timing might not be ideal.

I never did find out for sure but I think the 04. 5+ have less timing to begin with than the 03-04's based on sensor/tone ring mod effects and the Nox values on the valve covers.
 
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are we just over looking the fact that it might not be the fuel but how easy it is to turn up the pressure, timing, duration, pulse and not realize what we are doing to the pistons? I know alot of people that have gauges but don't let off even if it is reading 1500. IMO People are just tring to get too much performance and get caught up in the moment when the tires are smoking and the black smoke blowing. Just a thought
 
from some independant testing I have read recently, it looks to have a lower cetane number than the previous fuel. the older fuel was typically over the minimum requirement while the new fuel is right on the bare minimum.

as far as I know either way this will not promote detonation. the fuel has less energy which I would say would prevent detonation if anything.

Cummins had identified piston debonding in earlier engines. It was partially due to timing control failures and having existing issues with piston design. it was more seen in excavators due to their duty cycle though.



on a side note I work for Cummins and have not seen the failures in the field that have been reported in chrysler aplications. chrysler has their own software specs and calibrations and I personally think it has something to do with that. just think a vp-44 isb rated at 235 HP from Cummins is supplied with 660FTLBS. now the isbe's are over 300HP and still under 600 FTLBS. Im not sure how they change the calibration so I dont have an educated guess on why the chryslers have more issues, I just know they do.
 
DMcPherson said:
.

on a side note I work for Cummins and have not seen the failures in the field that have been reported in chrysler aplications. chrysler has their own software specs and calibrations and I personally think it has something to do with that. just think a vp-44 isb rated at 235 HP from Cummins is supplied with 660FTLBS. now the isbe's are over 300HP and still under 600 FTLBS. Im not sure how they change the calibration so I dont have an educated guess on why the chryslers have more issues, I just know they do.

I can help you out on this. The trucks with this failure are highly modified, sometimes with 500+ HP, towing at high speeds when these occur. ;)

No issues with the Chrysler tuning. We are not worried about stock engines here.
 
steved said:
Hmmm, maybe I'll pull my Rokktech and go completely back to stock...



See if it changes tune any...



steved

You don't need to pull it. It's a stock one that is modified with a slot. Just loosen and slide it back to the other end of the slot and it's back to stock, timing wise.
 
skipro3 said:
You don't need to pull it. It's a stock one that is modified with a slot. Just loosen and slide it back to the other end of the slot and it's back to stock, timing wise.





Ahh, but the oring that is used to center the sensor is also gone... it would be just as easy to replace it with the original. That would prevent even the least bit retardation of timing.



steved
 
im not worried, im running enough timing and fuel pressure, my truck sounds like a powerstroke when between gears over 30lbs of boost, it makes alot of power, gets decent mileage and never goes over 1350 deg, i drive it like its stolen, change oil every 3,000 miles, samples are clean and say change at 5,000, i think the failures are from abuse also, i toasted mine at 57,000, dropped valve seat, all 6 pistons were damaged, cracks, melting, scoring etc, this was right before the ulsd, i cant tell a difference with the ulsd, i have tried additives and i did pick up some mileage, but power and sound is the same, i guess i will worry when it blows up again, i already want to pull it again so i can do some different things/ideas, but it has to run till i buy a new 6. 4 power stroke so i can make the dodge a full blown toy since i wrecked my work truck Oo.
 
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