Urea in 2010?

[Shelby Griggs]

In an article at 2008 Dodge Ram 4500 and 550 heavy duty chassis cabs about the C&C, I read this:



"Finally, all emissions equipment is under the cab - so upfitters don't have to worry about it. Emissions is currently all automatic; urea systems are still in the future (probably coming in 2010). "



So are urea systems in our future, or are they heavily speculating? The 3500-3500 pickups obviously are going a different route, just wondering if the C&C will use urea instead to meet the 2010 emissions?



SHG

 

[jelag]

I have an 08 5500 and attended a long class put on by Donaldson for those trucks that will be upgraded in the future in CA and the off road equipment... The DPF from what I understand is for soot... and the EGR is for NOX..... the option for the NOX is the urea system... and it must be refilled... to reduce NOX you have to lower combustion chamber temperatures... both the EGR and Urea systems do that... . The DPF takes care of the soot issue of the new law...

We looked at the equipment to clean the filter instead of doing a regen as we assume that all trucks will be forced into this process like all cars were forced into the PCV system back in the early 60's.

In vehicles designed for the average driver I don't think that we will see Urea injection... . the guy on the street won't have the knowledge to refill the system and keep it working... in large off road stuff, and in heavy trucks they are more inclined to keep them up... . The only way I can see Urea work on small vehicles is if they quit working or go into a limp in mode until the vehicle is serviced... If the owner won't service it, it won't clean the air... .

My personal dollars worth of input is this whole thing in the world market is junk... . After traveling to India and some of the other 3rd world countries and seeing what they drive and how much smog they produce, any vehicle we manufacture here is a drop in the bucket... . I'll now step off the soap box. . thank you for listening...

 

[n7gxz]

I heard that the EPA is talking of making the urea system a dealer serviced item only, no user refill and that the vehicle will either stop or go into a limp mode until the dealer services the system. I should add that this was a general statement about the urea systems not just what would be used on the Dodges'.



Kevin

 

[Regcabguy]

I heard that the EPA is talking of making the urea system a dealer serviced item only, no user refill and that the vehicle will either stop or go into a limp mode until the dealer services the system. I should add that this was a general statement about the urea systems not just what would be used on the Dodges'.



Kevin

That's the word my dealer buddy received from VW. It would coincide with the 10,000 oil changes. Doesn't sound like a big deal. The car's computer will give you several hundred miles notice,then go into limp mode.

 

[Shelby Griggs]

From what I have been able to ascertain, Cummins WILL use urea in medium duty trucks to meet the 2010 standard, BUT not in heavy duty trucks.



What isn't real clear is if 3500-4500-5500 Dodge's fall into the medium duty category, I suspect they might.



Urea is supposed to give better fuel mileage than the absorbers, BUT you have the ongoing costs and hassle of filling the urea tank.



A dealer only service doesn't appeal to me, I have performed ALL of the routine maintenance on both my 2001 Ram and my 2005 VW, I am sure I could fill the urea tank too, if big brother lets me.



SHG

 

[Tspanos]

Simple services like filling the urea tank should be able to be left to the consumer. Those willing to pay the stealers can. I personally can't understand paying some tech $80 an hour, 1 hr min to fill a tank.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

And yet, vehicles like the TDI meet 2010 emissions as I understand it, and don't need urea to do it - difference in duty of vehicle - or just better engineers?

 

[JDiepstra]

Who will be the first to come out with a Urea Delete Kit? That should be pretty sweet. Probably free up 100 horses and gain about 10 mpg's once all is said and done.

 

[dlmetzger]

And yet, vehicles like the TDI meet 2010 emissions as I understand it, and don't need urea to do it - difference in duty of vehicle - or just better engineers?

From a TDR #60 article "Challengx: The diesel electric hybrid" on page 142:



"However, designers have taken two main approaches to dealing with the NOx output. One is selective catalytic reduction (SCR) with urea injection. The other is the use of a lean NOx trap (LNT). Due to the small size of our engine (1. 9L), we chose to use the LNT. The reason: controlling urea to react with all the NOx and avoid over doping (too much urea in the stream) is very challenging, especially with a small engine. "





From other articles about urea injection that I have read, over doping produces ammonia in the exhaust, which is very undesirable to consumers.

 

[wxman]

From what I have been able to ascertain, Cummins WILL use urea in medium duty trucks to meet the 2010 standard, BUT not in heavy duty trucks... .

Cummins just announced that they WILL use urea-SCR for heavy duty truck engines (e. g. , ISX) - http://www.cummins.com/cmi/content.jsp?dataId=2870&newsInfo=true&siteId=1&menuId=4&langId=1033& .

Apparently, they are able to achieve significantly better fuel economy with urea-SCR.

The 2500/3500 pickups already achieve 2010 emission standards with NSC (NOx storage catalyst), so I would expect Cummins to continue with NSC. I suppose it's possible they may go to urea-SCR to achieve better fuel economy however.

The 2009 2500 6. 7 Ram has been certified by CARB as an "Ultra Low Emission Vehicle" (ULEV) for its weight category (8501 - 10000 pounds GVWR), and JUST MISSES SULEV ("Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle" - the strictest emission category currently promulgated). It misses SULEV by 0. 1 g/mile of NOx (@ useful life), and is generally well below SULEV limits for all other regulated emissions.

See http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2009/cummins_mdv_a0210481_6d7_u2_diesel.pdf for the CARB certification and Emission Standards: USA: Cars and Light-Duty Trucks - California for the emission satndards for each category.

 

[Shelby Griggs]

Very interesting, SCR on the HD Cummins is a 100% about face from what they were saying. I wouldn't rule out SCR on the C&C trucks either since they will either need to add the NSC as in the regular pickups OR SCR prior to 2010.



SHG

 

[Regcabguy]

I don't mind paying $85/hr. for competant service that is done right the first time. The other factor is the miniscule amount the tech receives,and he's the one getting dirty!

 

[Dieselnut59]

Who will be the first to come out with a Urea Delete Kit? That should be pretty sweet. Probably free up 100 horses and gain about 10 mpg's once all is said and done.

It will happen and it can't happen soon enough. It is sad we buy a vehicle and have to pay extra for a bunch of crap that kills our fuel economy and adds to the cost of operating the vehicle, then have to pay more to get rid of or disable it!

#@$%!

I do not mind emission controls but there has to be a happy median. If it burns more fuel to make it run cleaner, then why not meet somewhere in the middle. I do not see how using more fuel to get the same job done is a good thing...