Variable Geometry Turbocharger?

[HeavyHauler]

As all of you can see, I'm a 2nd generation guy, but I am intrigued by the new variable geometry turbochargers found on your trucks not to mention all of the new Benz diesels and most other consumer-oriented diesels.



Is anyone here an aficionado so to speak on the new turbos and the concepts behind them? I just wanted some general information on them as to how they're different than their predecessors. What makes them better? Any complaints?



Thanks for the info.

 

[HVAC]

VGT Turbos

I could be wrong, but I don't think we have seen any VGT's on the "03's. I know mine isn't a variable.



The boss on this subject is non other then the "Texas Tornado" aka Weir Cummin. Lessee if he jumps in here.

 

[HeavyHauler]

Oh, I was under the impression that all new diesels had the new turbos, I was for sure that the new Cummins did too. Maybe I was wrong, I know that the 6. 0 powerjoke does, didn't know about the duraslacks.



Maybe that guy will tune in and gimme some info.

 

[djbobo]

I can tell you that the variable geometry turbo on my harley puts out a good amount of boost at low rpm and almost eliminates "turbo lag" all together'

When I went to Cummins West last week they had a cut away of the VGT and it looked alote like the one on the bike. They said it will be in the Dodge trucks soon. FWIW



dj



Hey HVAC how would you set up twin VGT"s (maybe in parallel - 3cyl per turbo)

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Dean's variable 40 used with Twins would rock!



Jim

 

[CATCRACKER]

there is no answer to when if ever the hpcr cummins will get a vgt turbine at this point. if they do as a vgt i will be selling my 03

 

[AMF]

vgt

I think you'll find the VG turbo's on the EGR engine's. I know that's what's on my ISM. they help push exhaust gasses back into the intake. That's what the Cummin's dude told me anyway.

 

[y-knot]

I think an awful lot of credit has to extended to the new ford 6. 0L. They have pushed the envelope further then anyone, in this field. I know they have a few problems now, but you have to give them credit for coming out with their EPA compliant engine way before the mandatory deadline. They could have sat back and continued to produce and market their 7. 3L, and delayed the introduction of the 6. 0L until jan 1st like others . I would have to say, with all there problems, they probably should have, but that is hind sight, and how many of us wished be could have done things a bit differently? I hope cummins and dodge did there homework of this one? The "we are not going to release it, till we have to "attitude worries me. It seems to imply they are not quiet ready. I hope they have it all together, but given the troubles ford experienced, I would not be one to want to purchase any of the first engines. I am sure ford thought they had it all worked out also. The used truck lots around me are all full of nice and shinny 03 fords, with very low miles. Can you say "buy back", sure you can.

 

[HVAC]

djbobo/Jim Fulmer

As a builder of twin systems it occurred to me the VGT would be a great high pressure turbo. It would be quick of the line and develop consistant drive pressure all through the rpm range, through all types of driving. No waste gate would be necessary cause the VGT can open up to similate a rather huge housing.



The only concern is the MONUMENTAL PRICE!

 

[rbattelle]

Variable vanes on a turbo allow you to change flow rate independent of expansion ratio and speed, whereas non-VGT turbos have a fixed characteristic of flow rate versus expansion ratio for any given speed.

 

[HVAC]

Variable Vane or Variable Geometry

Just in case anyone is now confused, the VGT turbo does not have vanes that change. Rather the housing opens up or closes to compensate for engine rpm. At low rpm the turbine housing closes down and acts like a HY9 to provide quick bottom end. Then when your on the hammer hard the turbine opens up to prevent high backpressure. Dean uses air pressure to work the turbine housing. Seems to work well in fact.

 

[rbattelle]

HVAC-



Well, you have just educated me! All this time I thought everyone was waiting for a turbo with variable guide vanes! Wow, what a revelation. I honestly had no idea.

 

[HVAC]

VGT

No harm, no foul



I thought the vanes would change pitch (still think that would be cool) origionally. But that would be problematic with all the heat and soot. It prolly wouldn't hold up in the long run.

 

[Rosco]

Re: Variable Vane or Variable Geometry

Originally posted by HVAC

Just in case anyone is now confused, the VGT turbo does not have vanes that change. Rather the housing opens up or closes to compensate for engine rpm. At low rpm the turbine housing closes down and acts like a HY9 to provide quick bottom end. Then when your on the hammer hard the turbine opens up to prevent high backpressure. Dean uses air pressure to work the turbine housing. Seems to work well in fact.

Actually I think both variable vane and variable housing designs are in use. If I'm not mistaken the 6. 0 Powerstroke uses variable vane technology while the Cummins uses a sliding nozzle on the turbo housing.

 

[WeirCummin]

Nowel, thanks for the tap on the shoulder. Sometimes I get a little lost out here in the country If I heard right, hugs & kisses XOXOXO back to ya from the wifey & I.



I have 11 VGT’s. 0ne on the Dodge & ten on ISM’s @ work The same turbo w/ a different part #. Already had an EGR failure @ 11k but couldn’t tell ya the exact nature ‘cause they’re in warranty and I just determine the fault w/ Insite and send em packin.



Nowel & Jim are right. A VGT as the HP turbo would be incredible For that matter twin variables, an HE400 series on top, heading north, south, east or west to the HE500 series. Space would be the problem thou, guess I could mount them divorced w/the 500 under the truck, in the bed or even a giant hood scoop. OH wait a minute, back to reality, that’s why I went with the VGT in the first place, to run a single turbo.



Rosco is correct in that there is more than one design of VGT. Holset went w/ what I consider the more simplistic one. It has one moving part, a sliding nozzle in the housing w/ 14 vanes that directs exhaust gases to the turbine wheel. On the Powerstroke, Garret uses a multiple #? vanes that rotate within the exhaust housing to direct flow. Even thou it would be cool I wouldn’t want adjustable turbine vanes. Just can’t imagine the problems there would be while turning @ 150K+ shaft speed.



I don’t think we'llbe seeing a VGT on the ’04. 5 Dodge do to the cost and complexity of the system, unless it’s to keep up with the competition ( I could be wrong, of course it would be a first ) From what I’m told, it will be some sort of after treatment. Of course I have almost as much trouble extracting info from Cummins as everyone else, even thou there have been a few fellows that have helped out tremendously.

A foot note here, can ya’ll see a Dodge Service Technician trying to diagnose a VGT/EGR system It wouldn’t be to conducive to BOMBING w/out a lot of R&D , research & destruction. Been there, done that:{ $$$



dj, What’s the difference between a Harley & a Hoover ? The location of the dirt bag ! All kidding aside, what are ya using to control the turbo on your bike? Just a simple boost/pressure control or an elaborate electronic control system ?



Dean

 

[CATCRACKER]

do you get as much turbo whistle out of a sliding nozzle VGT vs the garret multiple vein??? i am getting my self confused





the garret VGT sounds like a f-16 love it.

 

[truckstom]

Catcracker,

that thing whistles REAL good when pullin' a 5ver. I went for a ride with Dean this week-end up some pretty steep hills out here, with the trailer in tow...

Flat on the floor in 5th gear, egt's never got over 1150, at 70 mph+

Did I tell you with the 5th wheel in tow?? That thing rocks. Later on the way home, I'm followin' Dean in my truck, empty, and it's hard to keep up with him when he wants to go. And I could hear the whistle above my own... 'specially when goin' thru the gears.

Also, unless you were lookin' for it, you couldn't see any smoke, just a lite haze... .



So, low egt's loaded, nearly no smoke, no lag(great peddle response)... . I want one...





p. s. it was cool watchin' car traffic move out of his way going UPHILL :-laf

 

[HVAC]

Yup!

That's the "Texas Tornado"!



I once saw a mobile home flip right on over when he drove by. :-laf :-laf



Ever watch as a fly attempts to avoid the suction of a shop vac? (This method avoids the mess on the window) Well one day the ETH (Dean's) wasn't running up to full potential. When he opened up the air filter housing, he found a bicyclist stuck in there:--)

 

[djbobo]

Deans quote

dj, What’s the difference between a Harley & a Hoover ? The location of the dirt bag ! All kidding aside, what are ya using to control the turbo on your bike? Just a simple boost/pressure control or an elaborate electronic control system ?



My joke & reply



Dean- Why do Honda riders wear full face helmets? I wouldn't want people to know it was me either... ... The turbo is a 'bolt on' kit - I'm not going to pretent to know that much about how it's controled. It is also inter cooled & has a high / low boost select switch. Mine is set up for 120 hp & 130 ft lbs on 92 octain . If I change the piston to a 7. 5/1 comp. ratio & run 110 octain I could up the the boost level to 140 hp & 152 ft lbs. all done under 4000 rpms. The web site iswww.aerocharger.com A person like you might look at some of their different size turbos for custom installs. They are low maintenance & have ball bearings.

They also have bolt-on applications for cars & small diesels. They have a service life of 5000 hrs. I'm talking with them about a application for my ski-doo (summit 800 ho)



dj

 

[CATCRACKER]

i want a vgt on my 03 anyone else?