Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) VP-44 rebuild gamble... (long!)

[BillBrown]

Thanks for the reply. I am not really woried about tring to get by any longer if this is the problem. I now have A spare vp in My garage and I am going to swap it out in the next few days to see what happens. I do not know who did the last rebuild on it but it only has about 500 miles on it. If thing clear up and mileage goes back up I will send the present one to II for rebuild and then swap it back out on the truck. I just hate to change this pump that many times but I do want the better mileage, performance, and durability I can get for My truck. If it doesn't make the difference I guess I will have just swaped it out for nothing and will be looking for other answers. It was just today that I was told I had A timing problem with these symptoms, another mechanic looked at it close to A year ago and tried to tell Me the noise and smoke were normal and that He could find nothing wrong with the truck but since then it has gotten gradualy worse and more iritating so I am going to cure it if it kills Me.

 

[NoSeeUm]

Actually *I* have NEVER seen fuel system PSI measured at the overflow valve, but rather, at the fuel INLET port...

...

Yeah oops, my bad... .



Not sure I was thinking, but fuel pressure is measure at the inlet port.



Jim

 

[MVieira]

For me it wasn't just the P0216 code that came up, I noticed other things that lead me into believing the VP44 was having problems. I noticed on a steep grade, heading to Oregon pulling the 5ver, my boost was surging from 25 psi. to 28 psi. with the throttle held in a steady position, which it had never done before, which told me the fuel was coming in & out. You could also hear the engine surge but it didn't set the CEL yet. On the way home from Oregon was where the CEL went on and the P0216 was set. I was pulling the grade over the Siskiyous and I was pushing it alittle passing some trucks and that was where the CEL came on. I stopped at the next rest stop to check the codes and found the P0216. It was running ok so we decided to try to make it home which we did but I got a momentary dead pedal leaving the rest stop. Then later we got into some stop and go traffic at Redding with road construction and I also noticed the engine was running alittle rough when you revved it up in neutral. This happened all at once on one trip. My fuel pressure was 14psi at idle and never dropped below 10 psi. at WOT.

Mike.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Mike, I didn't have my own problem long enough to pick up on any of the "finer details" of what was going on - we had a looming trip of our own back down your way towing the 5er - and just prior to the trip started getting the 216's - I had also just received and started using the Smarty along with the Comp I already had.



I asked questions here on the TDR, and tried a few things to determine if the problem really WAS the VP-44, or other contributing factors - but other than the fact that the Smarty programming aggravated the problem and increased the frequency of the 216's, I was stuck...



Since I already had the spare VP-44 I bought from II, I wasn't comfortable traveling and towing the 5er out thru the boonies with what appeared to be a failing pump, so made the swap. The replacement hasn't missed a beat so far, regardless of Smarty programs loaded, or steepness of grades!



I had really suspected some form of electronic issue, since my steady use of lubricity additives SHOULD have minimized the possibility of mechanical or lube related issues. But I guess the basic problem in my case wasn't so much lubricity as it was simply a design flaw and material used by Bosch that isn't suited for the job it must do. The additives I used may well gave extended the life of the pump, but weren't enough to cope with so great a weakness on an extended basis.



Fortunately, the REST of the internal assemblies WERE still in suitable condition and within spec for continued use - so hopefully there WAS value in the stuff I so religiously added to my fuel!



On a side note, hope all is well with you and yours - and hope progress has been made in getting a Dodge group formed down there - I sure miss that sort of activity up here, as well as you and all the other neat folks at the get-togethers down there. I'd sure like to arrange one of our visits down there to coincide with another of the dyno days at Ken Imlers - keep me posted if you remember...

 

[BillBrown]

Swaped pumps on Mine today and it cleared up most of the problems. I guess the rest of the funny noises I hear are the wastegate of the biger turbo. I will send My old pump out soon for A rebuild if I can decide whether or not to spring for the hrvp or not. I have heard both ways about durability when going that route.

 

[CFAR]

Gary,



I think your pump failed because of all the toilet paper you ran through the engine!



or



Because it is an 02', they seem to go through more pumps.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Gary,



I think your pump failed because of all the toilet paper you ran through the engine!



or



Because it is an 02', they seem to go through more pumps.

I think it's been pretty well established, in this thread and a couple of others on the same general subject, that one reason for the unusually higher than expected number of late production VP-44 failures was the mysterious decision of Bosch to switch to a brass timing advance cylinder material in the later production units.



While it apparently quickly became evident that was a SERIOUS error, and that premature VP-44 failures were inevitable on units using the brass advance cylinder liners, the damage was done, and all that Bosch and DC have done to correct their poor judgement, is quickly switch over (back?) to steel cylinder liners instead - as apparently all Bosch rebuilders are now doing as an automatic part of rebuilding all/any VP-44s that come thru their doors with the brass liners.



I'd really like a better idea of exactly how many of the brass equipped pumps there really are out there in our trucks, and exactly when those pumps started use, and then were again revised with steel liners - might give a far better idea as to exactly what owners can expect down the road with their own specific pumps.



Along those lines, it sure seems to me that Bosch, in cooperation with MDC could - and should - easily determine WHICH specific trucks are potentially affected, and issue TSB's or recall notices. There's no reason or moral basis for them to stand all innocent looking as their trusting customers are facing and realizing so significant and expensive a repair - not one that just MIGHT happen prematurely, but one that is pretty well GUARANTEED on pumps so affected.



We Dodge owners may well point fingers and make fun of Ford owners with their past high failure rates - but at least for the vast most part, Ford Motor Company at least owned up to their problems, and stood up to make things right - including the total buy-back of MANY trucks with excessive failure issues.



MDC could take a lesson from Ford in that regard!



At least in my case, as the eventual bottom line in this particular thread, I have pretty well established that my failure WAS directly related to that brass advance cylinder - and that virtually all the rest of the internal assemblies and computer were still in excellent, in-spec condition - and subsequently reused in the rebuild of my pump as I had directed.



My personal efforts and use of various additives - including my toilet paper filters - were apparently maintaining the operation of the sensitive engine and VP-44 as I had hoped and planned and as well as could be expected in all but the case of the brass cylinder, which quite likely would fail early RGARDLESS of what any owner might do to avoid it.

 

[BWagnaar]

Hey Gary,

I've found this thread very informing and interesting. My 01 seems to be having some Vp problems as well. I had a couple of question though. I saw you have your Fuel psi gauge running to the vp inlet port. I did the same and have blown through 4 autometer gauges, 2 were with a pressure snubber provided by autometer. Have you had the this problem? How is you guage set up?



Second, i'm on a tight budget and saw a vp-44 "rebuild" kit on ebay. It looks like its just a bunch of o-rings. But do you think it is possible to rebuild a vp with a kit like this and installing a new steel bushing?



Also when you guys started talking about the fuel restriction between the bowl in the vp, at what HP level does that start becoming a problem??



Some of my buddies try to talk me into converting to a P pump in the future but i like the idea of the "tune-ablitiy" of an electronically controlled pump. Have you guys looked into a convertion like this??



Thanks

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Hey Gary,

I've found this thread very informing and interesting. My 01 seems to be having some Vp problems as well. I had a couple of question though. I saw you have your Fuel psi gauge running to the vp inlet port. I did the same and have blown through 4 autometer gauges, 2 were with a pressure snubber provided by autometer. Have you had the this problem? How is you guage set up?



Second, i'm on a tight budget and saw a vp-44 "rebuild" kit on ebay. It looks like its just a bunch of o-rings. But do you think it is possible to rebuild a vp with a kit like this and installing a new steel bushing?



Also when you guys started talking about the fuel restriction between the bowl in the vp, at what HP level does that start becoming a problem??



Some of my buddies try to talk me into converting to a P pump in the future but i like the idea of the "tune-ablitiy" of an electronically controlled pump. Have you guys looked into a convertion like this??



Thanks

Here's a shot of where and how I have installed the electronic sending unit for my Westach fuel PSI gauge:#ad




As you saw earlier in this thread, I take off right at the VP-44 inlet for my PSI readings, thru the rubber line seen - that has been installed over 45K miles and 4 years so far with absolutely NO problems.



NO, a replacement set of O-rings as NOT and "overhaul kit" for a VP-44 - don't get sucked in, there's FAR more involved in the way of replacements - plus a substantial time on a Bosch calibration stand to verify and fine-tune an overhaul!



I have no idea what the upper HP limit is with a stock VP-44, even when fed with larger lines and fittings, but would suspect in the vicinity of 500 HP or so...



And finally, for the expense of a P7100 pump conversion, you could buy about *4* replacement VP-44's - and with the conversion, you're left with a patchwork fuel system that MIGHT be a problem at sales or trade-in time for buyers unwilling to deal with a Frankenstein setup they are unfamiliar with...

 

[mhenon]

The new PSG's that we don't have yet which is newer than the newest available now will have a IAT sensor with it.

Brett, any word on the latest PSG? Also what's the deal with the IAT sensor? Is the a "latest" version that we should all replace or only when replacing a VP?

Mike