Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) VP44 -- New or Reman?

[CCOLLAR]

TDR'ers



This has been kicked around for awhile but no definitive answer: is there a way to determine whether a pump is new or remanufactured, either by color (some folks say reman's are painted black) or by number stamped on the pump? I hear that Bosch is sending out the last of the "new" pumps as "remans" so that they can get the cores.



Thanks.



Craig

 

[csevers]

I am gonna guess that it would have an "PX" at the end of the cummins part number this normally indicates a rebuilt/reman part. All the VP's that I have changed were not painted and some were new and some were reman's. Price has been all over the place also.



Craig

 

[rweis]

SouthEast Power Systems rebuild VP44's and test them with a BOSCH tester. I would call them and ask the question.



We have had 2 TDR meetings at SEPS, GREAT bunch of extremely smart people on hp pumps, injectors, turbos.



Bob Weis



Use google to find them on line. They are in FL at 5 locations.

 

[ISBPilot]

Since we're on the topic...........

I just went through the purchase of a VP myself. The price range was from 14 to 16 hundred. Does that sound like it has the core charge included or not? I am taking the core back this afternoon and just wanted to get a second opinion.



The standard answer around here is that they can not be rebuilt or "we" the public can not get the parts to rebuild them. But then we are buying reman pumps, so somebody had to rebulid em' somwhere.





Todd

 

[slavallee]

I wonder if there have been any significant changes with the VP44 since it's introduction? The was I read into things, the VP44 was just a temporary step inbetween the mechanical pumps and the common high pressure rail.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

A pertinent question as well, is, are the REMANUFACTURED pumps completely updated with the various "fixes" supposedly accomplished on the latest ones out the door - or only put back in service at whetever level originally supplied - and how complete ARE the rebuilds - only the failed parts, or do they really go thru them thoroughly and replace pretty much all moving parts?



As far as the VP-44 being only a weak interim substitute until something REALLY proper came along, I would challenge that - I'm convinced both DC and Cummins had every reason to think these pumps would do an excellent job in our truck - and the VAST majority HAVE!



Problem in my view, has been the fact that these pumps were designed for, and used primarily in the European market, on various vehicles over there where there are far stricter controls on diesel fuel quality and cetane ratings - much of ours here in the USA is JUNK by comparison, and the high-tolerance VP-44 simply must have better fuel quality, or they can fail early - as many do... I see it as more a FUEL QUALITY problem than a pump problem!



The precautions are to buy as good/clean fuel as possible, keep filters clean, spend a little extra for regular use of a good fuel additive for added lubricity - and BY ALL MEANS, monitor fuel pressure as to not starve the VP-44 - a sure fire way to cause damage!



GUAGE-GUAGES-GUAGES!

 

[CCOLLAR]

One might also say that the addition of fueling enhancement devices precipitates the pump failing. (I'll probably get flamed for this!). But my first pump failed for electrical, not mechanical, reasons: an internal short in the FPCM. Perhaps caused by the little box that jacks into the pump wire? Maybe, maybe not. But it certainly wasn't a mechanical failure and had the stranges symptoms I've yet encountered: when the truck was cold (less than 35 degrees), pump would short, MIL illuminate with "No comm between ECM and FPCM" error, and not start. When the truck was warmer, no problem whatsoever.



Any way that was 1 inj. pump and 36K miles ago. Now, I am getting 0216 with no observable performance/operational degradation. I am trying to determine whether the replacement pump I just purchased is remaned or new -- my bet is remaned. Whether Bosch remaned it, or a "bosch certified" shop remaned it is unknown. The Bosch part number is -027, which is supposedly the most recent rev of pump. But who really knows about these things -- I haven't heard one definitive answer from the people "in the know" yet.



Craig

 

[rholcom2]

???????????

Made a trip to Jim Jessup's last night to drop a truck off for him to fix. While I was trying to soak up some of his vast knowledge I swear he said, while talking about the three pumps he had sitting on his bench:



#1 1st gen 12 V pump



#2 94-98 12 V pump



#3 VP44 Pump



I could have sworn that he stated that the #1 pump and the #3 pump were nearly the same pump with the exception of the computer..... apparatus on the top. What do you guys think about that??

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I think you misunderstood what you thought he said...



The ONLY similarity is, the old VE pumps actuated the pump pistons by use of a "wavy/wobble disc" that forced the pistons in and out of their bores, whereas the VP-44 pistons ride inside a donut-like actuator with internal lobes to force the pistons in and out of their bores - neither pump type has a crankshaft/connecting rod/piston arrangement as many other pumps do, and neither the older VE or P7100 has the internal mechanism to allow instantaneous adjustment of pump timing or fuel volume to adapt to changing engine loads as does the VP-44 - and it would take LOTS more than a circuit board to make them do so...

 

[SCox]

ISB Pilot,



Next pump you get give cumminsstuff.com a shout. Paid $800 and some change for mine. New Pump. Had it to me in less than a week. He did take mine for a core, but said at this point he is just collecting them for later? Put it in 6 months ago, not a problem since. Hopefully you wont need another one... . but man 1600 clams, ouch.

 

[jrandol]

Phone call a few weeks back to check the price on cumminsstuff.com gave me a price of $1550 + core. Prices seem to have gone up with them as of recent. Not sure why???



Jeff

 

[SCox]

Doh, should have bought 2..... Thats a helluva price jump in 6 months. Sorry for the miss info! Hopefully I won't need another one.

 

[CCOLLAR]

Gary, et. al. ,



It seems there is a difference between "remaned" and "rebuilt," at least in regard to the pumps. I received an email from a well known source of VP44s here on the board and he tells me he is getting a shipment of "rebuilt" pumps with "mostly new parts. " This tells me that any factory "fixes" might not be included in pumps that never make it back to the factory (i. e. , "remaned" pumps. )



I wonder if anybody on the board has had their pump diagnosed and fixed rather than just having it exchanged? I wonder what the cost is? And I wonder one more thing -- the % of mechanical failures vs. electronic ones? Ah, yes, one FINAL, question: when these pumps are "rebuilt," do they test the FPCM and if so, can they replace the module itself or is the entire pump replaced.



Too many questions and not enough answers/facts about these pumps, if you ask me.



Craig

 

[Bob Wagner]

this was posted in another forum, looks like another source



http://www.realdiesel.com/

 

[jrandol]

Seems to me the pump business is the next closest thing to government undercover work. In other words, it is pretty darn concealed and very few outsiders know exactly what mods are being done to the pumps yet most everyone knows that "something" is being done to them. Sure wish I was the one with the detailed info!!

 

[rweis]

SouthEast Power Systems re????????????'s VP's. They have a BOSCH tester (huge) that then test them (VP's).



When our TDR club had a meeting at two of their shops (they have five in FL) they had a re ??????? line for the older style hp pumps. On the work benches the pumps were completely apart down to a frame only. Their test line was set up with about 8 testing machines for pumps. Now, do they re????????. Call them, they have a web page.



They also do turbos, injectors, and VP's. Seems like about a year ago when we were there they were waiting on BOSCH to fix a software bug on the VP tester (worldwide problem). The BOSCH tester was HUGE like about 8'lx6'hx4'w and looked extremely expensive like measured in high $xxx,xxx. xx or $x,xxx,xxx. xx's.



I would call them and ask.



When FL TDR club went they had a VP apart and showed us what water did to them, what happened when the VP experienced catastrophic failure, when high pressures got into the low pressure area, was really interesting.



Bob Weis

 

[CCOLLAR]

A link would help:



http://www.se-power.com



Looks good! The have rebuilt pre-027 VP44's, with Bosch numbers for $1000. The rebuilt -027 models runs $1100. Core is $500 -- kind of steep. I especially like the fact that they INCLUDE the Bosch number -- most places don't.



I find it sort of funny that we (TDR-ers) get so obsessed with rebuild/reman/new pumps (OK-- I get obsessed with it!), as if the VP44 is the most delicate and complicated pump out there. Rebuilt pumps for much more demanding applications then ours are sold all the time. Just compare our app to any marine app. Those folks trust the reliability of their pump with their lives everyday, and that is with pumps that run at %100 throttle for days on end!



I guess I (we?) are a little gun-shy after all the problems we have read on the the board. Certainly, we are getting a skewed sample of the % of pumps with problems vs. the number actually sold! And of course Dodge hasn't helped any in the way they have handled it.



Well, its good to know there are shops out there like SE Power, and others, that do quality work.



Craig

 

[Rebel_Horseman]

I just replaced mine about 2 months ago and here's my take on it. I called Cummins South East in New Orleans and they told me pumps were running somewhere between $1400 - $2400 plus labor and diagnosis. I brought my truck to a shop and they rteplced my toasted VP with a "reman" unit and the pump itself was $1400 and the whole repair came to $2100 and change. This pump came directly from DC with a 12 month/12,000 mile warranty. My friend who is a diesel mechanic for the water company said that we could have brought the pump to a local shop that rebuilds pumps and probably spent 1/4 of that on a rebuild. Supposedly he has brought injection pumps to this shop before although I don't know for certain that he can rebuild a VP. Either way it's a crummy deal. Luck!



Brian [><]

 

[RPainter]

any way of changing the vp44 to the common high rail used in the 04? I haven't had to replace my vp 44 yet but would like to know of alternatives before it happens short of buying a new truck or leaving cummins all together.

Randy