Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) water/methanol injection

[WaynesWorld]

Can anyone pass on some info on the water/methanol injection? How does it work? Is there any problems using it daily? What kind of hp increase does it give?

Awaiting the flood of info,

WAYNES WORLD

 

[ndurbin]

How does it work? it's similar to NOS or propane really except it's liquid. You put 2 nozzles in the intake horn to inject the mix and use a Hobbs switch (i believe) to activate it at about 20 lbs. of boost.



There are several threads out there with a TON of info.



dyno results



info thread



variable control vs. hobbs switch



there are several more just goto the search forums and typin water methanol injection and you'll be reading for awhile.



Nathan

 

[WaynesWorld]

ndurbin,

Thank you for the GREAT research info. That should help with the decision.

Just out of curiosity, where is Medicine Lodge? The name has a beautiful sound to it. I know till you fire up the soot monster.

Thanks,

WAYNES WORLD

 

[ndurbin]

Medicine Lodge is in the middle of nowhere really. SW of Wichita, Kansas about 100 miles or so in the Gyp Hills.



N/P on the info I've had my eye on water/meth injection for awhile just not enough in the bomb fund for it yet.



Nathan

 

[jetenginedoctor]

We had a number of trucks running water injection this weekend at the Texas TDR Rally at Buckhorn Lake. Many of them did dyno pulls both with and without the WI. To the best of my recollection, NONE of them made more power with the WI. In fact, there were several who ran very poorly with the WI on. It's possible that they were over-injecting, and that some tuning effort might have yielded some real gains.



I will say, however, that the WI did lower EGTs by a considerable amount. I'm not sure I'd recommend it as a way to control EGTs, but that is ONE beneficial effect that I could see from this weekend's testing.



If you want more power, buy a nitrous injection system. WI is far more effective on a turbocharged gasoline engine than on a compression ignition engine because of what it does. . . . suppress pre-ignition/detonation, which allows you to safely tune such an engine to it's full potential. Despite what many will tell you, WI does NOT increase the density of the air charge. You're effectively displacing air (which burns) with water vapor (which does not burn. ) How this is supposed to increase performance on a diesel engine is frankly beyond me. If you're looking for power, I'd invest either in a propane system or nitrous oxide system.



Your milage may vary.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

If people are not making power with a www.snowperformance.com injection system then it is not setup correctly..... period! I have never failed to make at least 60 hp even on stock charger trucks, but I have also had a few phone calls from people that didn't have it setup right... ... ... it must be tuned a little and it's not a throw on do nothing to system.



Jim

 

[jetenginedoctor]

Easy there, Jim. . . . . do you work for Snow Performance????



My question was, and still is. . . . . what is it about the WI system that is supposed to make more power?

 

[jetenginedoctor]

Ah, it looks like you DO work for Snow!



http://www.snowperformance.net/proddetail.asp?prod=auto150



Tell us, what is the right way to use this stuff, and how have others been doing it wrong? I'm sure that many over-inject, thinking if a little is good, more must be better, and a whole lot more must be great! But if you're fogging the compressor inlet, you've got to be careful not to allow water to form drops or streams along the inlet tube, or you'll damage the compressor face by water impingement. There is some science to all of this, and there is only so much to be gained by it. If you're in a humid area, it's not going to work as good as if you're in a very dry area. If there's not much spread between dry and wet bulb temperatures, it's not going do do anything to benefit power production.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Now worries... ... ..... Na, Matt has just been good to me like Piers ect so I do what I can for him.



I doubt that straight water will gain much but I did get to see some one gain 13 hp on straight water, the power comes from the Methanol. There are a few steps to tuning one of these and they are very simple, you have to match pump pressure that can be set at the pumps head (2mm allen screw) and turn on setting for intial and turn on for full pressure (Variable Controller) then there is nozzle matching but this is done when ordering, most all Dodge Diesels require (2) 625's to start and tune the pump from there. Some but very few require more nozzles to get the right flow due to higher boost pressures (I use 3) but could drop to 2 now due to a proper intercooler.



FYI, I'd like to run on your dyno a few times as I really like it and the load it makes in Direct 1 to 1... ... ... more realisic.



Jim

 

[jetenginedoctor]

So, am I right to figure these guys were probably over-injecting? Come down any time and we'll do some comparisons between WI and non-WI runs on your truck. You're always welcome. . . .

 

[CGriffith]

jetenginedoctor

I understand that you have pretty good skills when it comes to operating a dyno, But...



YOU need to educate yourself before you give advice or criticize anyone, especially Jim about W/M injection. It is obvious that you know NOTHING about W/M injection when you say

But if you're fogging the compressor inlet, you've got to be careful not to allow water to form drops or streams along the inlet tube, or you'll damage the compressor face by water impingement. There is some science to all of this, and there is only so much to be gained by it. If you're in a humid area, it's not going to work as good as if you're in a very dry area. If there's not much spread between dry and wet bulb temperatures, it's not going do do anything to benefit power production.

NOBODY with a brain fogs anything at compressor wheel but LPG. W/M is always injected after the intercooler/before the intake.



The main purpose of water injection is to cool the air after it has been cooled (density increased) by the air to air intercooler. And yes W/M DOES increase the density further. Most report a 2-4 psi gain in boost with W/M.



The power increase from W/M injection comes from the methanol that is injected with the water. Typically, the more meth the more power (never run more than 50%), depending on how much fuel your running. If you can't burn most of the fuel injected how will the methanol ( more fuel) help much?



Yes, nitrous will make bigger HP gains in a short term situation like drag racing or dyno runs if you have an excess amount of fuel. But some or most truck owners tow which is where water injection and some methonal helps a lot because it allows the use of all the fuel with lower EGTs. From my experience propane only benifits trucks with a limited amount of fuel, typically Fords and Chevys, as cummins injection pumps are not fuel limited (most of the time).



To my recollection (correct me if I'm wrong JF) Jim was running a home built W/M system that worked O. K. Then he BOUGHT a snow performance system because it worked better than what he had.



Also from my experience, as long as you're not injecting enough water to put the fire out and make the engine miss, it WILL make more power.



Sticks gives some real world dyno results that shows 5 hp on strait water and 64hp on 50/50 meth/H20 on a 24v. 64 usable HP for less than $500 seems like a good HP/$ ratio to me.

See this thread for dyno graphs

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112539&highlight=Water+Methanol



WaynesWorld-a search will turn up almost all the info you can stand on this subject. Also please take my advise, run no more that a 50/50 mix if you buy a W/M system. I run 50/50 for all out racing and 70/30 for towing in the winter(so it doesn't freeze). Straight water is good for me in the summer. 70/30 gives the best HP for the buck IMO. Look at the dyno graphs and you will see 50/50 only gives another 10 HP. More than 50/50 can increase the timing and cylinder pressure enough to cause major engine damage so I would stay away. Also I wouldn't run any methonal if your near the limits of your head gasket. Straight water is great if you have high EGTs (from your sig I would say you have some probs if you tow much) and is very much worth the money if you want to use all the fuel you have.



jetenginedoctor

Please do some reasearch before you discount anything Jim fulmer says. He has been here a lot longer than three months and has helped a lot of lesser informed people. You sound like you're fresh off a GM/Ford site and we don't put up with the typical B. S. distribution that occurs on those sites.