2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Westach analog gauges vs. Edge Insight for 1998 12-valve 5-speed

[purdytj]

analog gauges vs. Edge Insight for 1998 12-valve 5-speed

Greetings all,

This is my 1st posting to the TDR threads after perusing them for many months. I have a 1998 2500 quad cab with the 12-valve engine and NV 4500 manual transmission. I am looking to get some gauges to monitor systems when towing our 31' Airstream. I read the newest article in the TDR magazine and saw the review of the Edge Insight (Edge Products| Product). Since I have the mechanical pump I won't need the Attitude or other tuners. I just want to have a nice gauge / monitoring system. I'm thinking about the Westach dual-needle combo gauge for EGT and boost, a dual-needle temp gauge for my transmission (TransCool transmission cooler for NV4500) and rear differential (MagHytec for Dana 80), and even a mechanical fuel pressure gauge (although I know I don't necessarily need one for the mechanical fuel pump). I'm wondering if the Edge Insight would be better since I can also monitor pitch/roll for offroading, recalibrate the speedometer reading since mine is off because of bigger tires, have the slim digital look, add backup cameras later, and save some money (perhaps).



Please share any wisdom regarding if the Edge Insight will work or if I should stick with the traditional / analog gauges. I know that I have the OBDII port, but is it worth it?



Thanks!

 

[SRath]

There's a false premise in there. Even a 12v should have a fuel pressure gauge. While the lift pump isn't nearly as prone to failure as the 24v, the fuel lines and preheater are prone to air leaks. Starving a P7100 can be very expensive, too. Not to mention power-robbing.

To add all those other "necessary" gizmos but no fuel pressure gauge would have me scratching my head in wonder. You made it sound like it was the least important item.

 

[MChrist]

I have the older version of the Edge Insight, and I like it. The newer version looks much slicker, and has ability to be used as a back up camera screen. My primary reason for choosing the Insight over analog gauges was that I wanted to be able to monitor everything, without having 10 gauges spread out all over the place!
I installed a mechanical boost gauge later, because the digital gauge would only read to about 38 psi, when I was actually attaining 46. I admit that I actually prefer looking at analog gauges over the digital display, but the Insight had more flexibility for my needs.

 

[purdytj]

There's a false premise in there. Even a 12v should have a fuel pressure gauge. While the lift pump isn't nearly as prone to failure as the 24v, the fuel lines and preheater are prone to air leaks. Starving a P7100 can be very expensive, too. Not to mention power-robbing.



To add all those other "necessary" gizmos but no fuel pressure gauge would have me scratching my head in wonder. You made it sound like it was the least important item.

Thanks for your feedback. I have a friend who had a '96 for years and told me it would not be necessary to have the fuel pressure gauge. I'd personally rather be safe than sorry - I agree with you and will have the gauge as one of my first purchases.

 

[Joe G.]

The two most important gauges are fuel pressure and EGT. If two was all you get it should be those. Other gauges are good, but those two are essential in my opinion.

 

[SRath]

I didn't see the details on your truck, a rare and desirable '98 12v 5sp QC-LB 4x4, in your initial post but I see they are in your last one. Nice find.

 

[RHestand]

First, welcome to TDR, hands down the best website for great info. on our trucks.
I like the old school analog because that's what I'm used to. I bought my 3 gauge A-pillar package (Boost-pyro-ATF by AutoMeter) from Gino's and I have no complaints. IMO, the A-pillar is the best place for these gauges. Easy to see at all times.
For the fuel and oil pressure I bought a pair of small (1&1/2"?) mechanical gauges (Also AutoMeter from Summit Racing and made my own mounting bracket integrated with my trailer brake control bracket down by my right knee. It was kind of tricky to find a good spot for these two but where there at works good for me.
I also tow a 31' Airstream with my 98- 12V. At first I felt it (185HP?) was a little under powered so I did some minor upgrades to my P-pump and boost control and it's a lot better now.
Ray
PS- By the way, on my previous truck (An 06--2500) I bought and installed one of the 2 in one gauge (Pyro/Boost, also installed on my a-pillar) that IMO was never that easy to read. I would recommend individual gauges for all.

 

[SRath]

If you opt for pillar-mounted LED backlit gauges like Autometer's Sport Comp II (I use them only as a familiar-to-me example), buy the special LED dimmer and install it, too. Mine are so bright and right at eye level and in such close proximity that wiring them into the dash light dimmer is not effective at all and they are blinding at night. Very annoying.

 

[norcalram]

I think the point everyone here is missing is that you have a 98. the digital guages typically run through the ODBII port to obtain their data. I was looking into the Bullydog for my 98. the problem with that is that our good old mechanical 98's aren't controlled through the ECM as the newer electronic engine management. The ecm does not relay info on any of the functions typicaly supported by the electronic guages. below are the functions supported by most electronic guages, and our trucks do not have the sensors to monitor those functions. When using mechanical guages, each one must be supported by a sensor connected to that guage such as boost pressure from the manifold or a pyrometer in the exhaust manifold. Electronic guages are cool. but pricey since only one or two funcions would work.



Vehicle Monitoring Functions:

Real Time Fuel Economy

Average Fuel Economy

Trip Fuel Economy

Load

Coolant Temperature

Fuel Pressure (gasoline vehicles)

Fuel Rail Pressure (diesel vehicles)

Manifold Absolute Pressure

Engine RPM

Speed

Timing Position

Air Intake Temperature



Mass Air Flow (grams/sec)

Throttle Position

Fuel Level

Battery Voltage

Ambient Air Temperature

Transmission Temperature

Pyrometer #1 & 2*(optional)

Boost*

IPW (Injection Pulse Width)*

Barometer*

Oil Temperature*

ICP (Injection Control Pressure*

*Diesel Specific Monitoring functions

 

[SRath]

So what in there was something "that everyone missed"? Are you saying that gauges cannot be mounted to a 12v or what? There are plenty here including me that can prove otherwise. What does the OBD connector have to do with anything at all gauge-wise?

When we speak of electrical vs mechanical gauges we are generally speaking of fuel pressure gauges on these trucks. They have nothing to do with whether the truck is a 24v with a computer or a 12v without. Mechanical gauges use a capillary tube filled at all times with fuel that directly feeds the gauge, meaning you would have a tiny fuel line inside the cab with you which is generally not a good idea for safety reasons.

An electric gauge uses a remote sensor to translate direct fuel pressure to an electrical signal for the gauge without running a capillary tube into the passenger compartment. Same with oil pressure gauges.

You are speaking of electronic ecm controlled gauges (I think), something different from electric gauges.

 

[Hammer]

Scott...

What you missed and he is trying to say is this...

One the early 98's equipped with the mechanical 12v motor you will NOT be able to run this electronic gauge set up. Our trucks,while we have partially supported OBDII,we do not have the needed motor ECM required to run a set of these gauges,The Bullydog or the Quadzilla set up.



These type of gauges are not run with external(or added) senders they require the use of the ecm and the factory sensors to do their job. I had won a Quadzilla Commander at a show a few years ago and was going to install it on mine and once I seen that I did not have the correct items for it to work I then sold it to a meber who had a 24v who still has it today.



For gauges he will need to run the old style mechanical or electrical ones and the only option he has for a multi-function gauge setup is the very expensive Intellidash,which many do not want to lay the cash out for... ..... Andy

 

[purdytj]

Scott...
What you missed and he is trying to say is this...
One the early 98's equipped with the mechanical 12v motor you will NOT be able to run this electronic gauge set up. Our trucks,while we have partially supported OBDII,we do not have the needed motor ECM required to run a set of these gauges,The Bullydog or the Quadzilla set up.

These type of gauges are not run with external(or added) senders they require the use of the ecm and the factory sensors to do their job. I had won a Quadzilla Commander at a show a few years ago and was going to install it on mine and once I seen that I did not have the correct items for it to work I then sold it to a meber who had a 24v who still has it today.

For gauges he will need to run the old style mechanical or electrical ones and the only option he has for a multi-function gauge setup is the very expensive Intellidash,which many do not want to lay the cash out for... ..... Andy

Hi Andy,
I think we are on the same page... After reading this feedback it is my understanding that I should NOT get the Edge Insight or other device that connects to my OBDII port. I should get 'typical gauges' with the round dials. I do understand the discourse about some of the gauges being electrical and some of them being mechanical - sorry about the confusion there with my choice of words.

This forum is and will continue to be very helpful. Thank you to all who shared wisdom!

Rattle on - T. J.

 

[purdytj]

I didn't see the details on your truck, a rare and desirable '98 12v 5sp QC-LB 4x4, in your initial post but I see they are in your last one. Nice find.

Thanks! It took me about 1 year of researching what would be the most reliable and convenient engine, transmission, and cab setup and about 9 months of searching with cash in hand. Finally found her in October of 2010 on my local Craigslist!

 

[purdytj]

OK comrades, I have another question about gauges: The boost gauge.

I'm revealing my ignorance when comparing diesel and gas engine mechanics here, but please hear me out: My wife drives an 09 Subaru WRX that we both love. At the time of purchase, it was the fastest production car under $25,000 according to Car and Driver - a purchase that we have not yet regretted! It is turbocharged and has a Stewart Warner / SPT (Subaru Performance Tuning) vacuum / boost gauge that is absolutely beautiful and compliments the regular gauges nicely. I am easily entertained and I like monitoring the vacuum reading before the gauge sweeps past the "0" into the boost range. My question: Is it possible for a boost gauge with vacuum to work with a diesel engine? I know (but honestly don't fully understand) that a diesel does not combine air into the engine in the same way a gas engines does, so would the vacuum reading even show up with a diesel engine? The gauge that I like would be something like the Cobalt Auto Meter from Autometer. I would then get that family of gauges to match my boost / vacuum gauge. Has anyone here tried to use a boost gauge that also shows the vacuum reading on their Cummins diesel engines?

Again, I'm having to humble myself among great diesel owners and I appreciate all of the wisdom that you can share. Thanks for your patience as I learn all I can about my first diesel.

Thanks! T. J.

 

[Hammer]

To answer your question,nope.

The boost/vacuum gauges do not provide enough boost swing for a mildy modded truck(I am assuming that you are going to do some work to the truck). The typical boost level on a stock 12v can range from 18-24psi depending where the timing was set from the factory(should have been around 13. 5 degrees but I have seen some closer to 15).



Once you add a fueling plate to your truck most good running 12v's will lay the boost gauge over at 35psi and some will even swing hard to/or beyond 40psi. With so many types of gauges available you have a better mix to choose from and you can also change the dash face plate to match the gauges.



I run a pair of old school 2-1/4" mechanical white faced EEP Gauges(100psi boost/EGT) and a electric S-W 100psi Fuel Pressure gauge. Then on the top left side of my dash is a Corsa Intellidash. The mechanical boost gauge is installed on the turbo side of charge air system and the Intellidash Boost is taken at the intake. The mechanical EGT gauge is in the front 3 cylinders where the Intellidash monitors the rear 3(shown on the bottom right side). The large numerical display is used as a tach and the yellow lights are a full sweep shift light that can be programmed at what RPM you want. The small green light also has a red and a yellow and its monitoring the charging system. I did that install,which was not cheap,because I wanted a better tach and at the time it was the only realistic option out there.



I am not sure what you want for gauge mounting options or how many you want to install,but,drop me a PM as I have a left side top of the dash 2 gauge pod I found when I moved that I do not use at all anymore. IF Your going to use it I would be glad to pay it forward for the shipping costs If your not interested I will place it in the pay it forward section and send it along to someone who can use it. Its only drawback is its painted red as my 98 12v truck is Flame Red... ... ... ..... Andy



#ad




P. S. -Here is a small shot of the left side dash pod. it is a old Banks Power pod that is not available anymore. Its a terrible shot of it but all I had.

 

[SRath]

Scott...

What you missed and he is trying to say is this...

One the early 98's equipped with the mechanical 12v motor you will NOT be able to run this electronic gauge set up. Our trucks,while we have partially supported OBDII,we do not have the needed motor ECM required to run a set of these gauges,The Bullydog or the Quadzilla set up.



These type of gauges are not run with external(or added) senders they require the use of the ecm and the factory sensors to do their job. I had won a Quadzilla Commander at a show a few years ago and was going to install it on mine and once I seen that I did not have the correct items for it to work I then sold it to a meber who had a 24v who still has it today.



For gauges he will need to run the old style mechanical or electrical ones and the only option he has for a multi-function gauge setup is the very expensive Intellidash,which many do not want to lay the cash out for... ..... Andy

Gotcha. I was speaking in analog/mechanical/electrical/old fashioned gauge mindset and he was talking about a plug-in computer that did what those gauges do.



Here's how computerized OBD stuff works for me: We bought a brand new S10 Blazer for my wife in '95. Perfectly maintained mechanically, but after a local shop absolutely fried the electrical system, to the point of dead-shorting a brand new battery and melting the wiring harness while supposedly just replacing a fuel pump while I was gone out of town driving, the nightmare began. Apparently, '95 was an oddball year: OBD I system with an OBD II connector. No code reader would ever work. I even took it to the dealer and they couldn't do it. I have heard them referred to as OBD 1. 5, whatever that is. I ended up making my own piggyback harness to the ecm, injectors, crank position sensor, and coil just to make it run. It ran like that for years, not like it should, but it got the job done. The A/C and "Hi Fan" never worked again. It would melt the fusible link instantly. A dead short(s) somewhere in that miles-long big-as-your-wrist wiring harness. I finally solved the computerized/OBD/electrical problem by selling it on Craig's List 3 days ago in less than 15 minutes of posting the ad (probably a good sign I did not ask enough money). It was in fantastic conditon; not a tear or wear spot in any seat and the body was great and everything mechanical was, too, with a good 50k to75k miles at least left in her mechanically. But it was a computerized, disgusting disaster. It was the only and last computerized new vehicle I will ever buy. So that's why the very idea of ever deliberately adding any computer to any vehicle, even just for gauge purposes, never even crossed my mind.

 

[purdytj]

final Autometer gauges installed

Hi all,

I don't know if any of you are subscribed to this old thread, but this is what I ended up going with using AutoMeter gauges:

Left pillar (top down): fuel pressure, pyrometer, boost.

Dash pod (left to right): empty (future front diff or aux fuel tank), transmission temp, rear diff temp.



I'm liking the look and had fun figuring out the wiring. The pictures make the angle of the left pillar look skewed, but from the driver's vantage point they are great.