What are the Problems with this engine ?

[Katmandu]

Is it worth buying a truck with this engine or not ?

 

[Diesel85]

Depends on what you'll be doing with it and how deep your pockets are.

I did my research, and wanted to try it one out. So I opted for a used 2020 EcoDiesel, with a warranty.

The Gen 2 (used in 2014 thru 2019) engine is not a good choice due to bottom end failures and the EGR cooler is of bad design and you'll end up having coolant leaks. Also a bad soot coking problem in the intake. Replacement engines run between $20-25k, with a long back log. Add $3-5k for install. I'd stay away from it.

The Gen 3 (used in 2020 thru 2023) engine is 80% different than the Gen 2 and addressed a lot of the problems. But now as time is adding up, there seems to be alternator lock ups, coolant leaks, and still has soot related problems.

Very few shops want to work on the EcoDiesel too. Aftermarket scene is well, only a few items, but mostly addresses things like the EGR issue. Not really performance. Basically not much support. Tunes are dime a dozen, but I'd go with Mr. Tuning or GDE. Just not a lot of aftermarket support on the EcoDiesel. Totally different than owning a Cummins/Powerstroke/(regular) Duramax, where aftermarket parts galore to build up some crazy soot blowing monster of a diesel engine.

Both engines are OK for towing small loads, but it does NOT replace something like a Cummins in a HD. Oil temps get right up into the 250F+ range and even some derate can occur. If you don't tow much, highway/mild city driving is great.

If it wasn't for me to have some cash floating around to throw down to "try" one of these EcoDiesels (wanted one since 2014's inception), I would've went straight to the Cummins.

My truck will be gotten rid of when the warranty expires, only because it will be 7 years old by then, and time for something newer. Plus, it will be a 3500 heavy duty and will likely be a Cummins truck.

As weird as this sounds, I still want to plunk down the money on a new truck, just so I know that I was the only driver of it from it's inception. My wallet doesn't like the sound of it, but eh, you only live once too. Though I did save money buy buying my 2020 EcoD used. I look at my 2020 as a wash and a "free" drive in some regard.

Otherwise, it drives great, comfortable, love the back flat floor, etc. The power is quite impressive and the engine sounds really nice. Music to my ears when driving it (well, so does the Cummins! LOL). The ZF 8 speed transmission is nearly bulletproof too. Shifts exactly where I'd want it to shift and the down shifts in tow/haul mode are fantastic. Lastly, the fuel mileage is where all light duty trucks should be right now -- I consistently get 31-33.5 mpg. (Go try that in a Hurricane... you'll be Hurricaning it to the gas station...)

If you got the money, go plunk it down on a Gen 3 if you want to "try" one. Otherwise if you need a real truck do the right thing and just get a 2500/3500 with the Cummins.

 

[Tuesdak]

Is it worth buying a truck with this engine or not ?

GM, who's Olds Diesel was bad enough to actually put Lemon Laws on the books, had a hand in the design of this engine as a joint Venture with VM. GM gave the engine up in it's bankruptcy. If GM's roots isn't clear that it's a light duty disposable diesel... It's history of a Zero (blow the bottom end to scrapmetal) or hero engine is easy enough to find. The signature GM hide a problem of revise the oil specifications is all over it. The engine is discontinued in RAM pickups.

The Ecodiesel uses the worst injection pump ever made: the failure prone CP4. It's failure trashes the entire fuel system: expensive injectors included. GM, RAM, and Ford (and other OEM's) face class action lawsuits over the CP4 grenade. RAM Cummins recalled the CP4 injection pumps (twice) for something better that's not a CP4, more than 100% of them will be replaced as several failed in warranty and were done in the first CP4 recall. No Not The Ecodiesel: it still suffers with a CP4. Even GM with their horrible diesel attitude abandoned the CP4!

Next practical question is how much does diesel fuel cost in your area? Diesel costs more than regular gasoline here eating any savings. Fuel filters and extra engine oil eat away at TCO savings from MPG. Although premium gasoline, 91 octane, costs more than diesel here almost no one compares this.

All diesel engine appear to suffer a fact that any problem becomes catastrophic. Emissions systems failure or expensive injector failure = haul out the scrap metal and drop in a new engine.

Emissions equipment for diesels are expensive and some parts are not covered by MOPAR Extended warranty.

You want this engine over a 5.7L Hemi why again?

Or why don't you step up to a proven "REAL DIESEL" in a 2500+ RAM pickup with a 5.9L or 6.7L Cummins? Vs. the Disposable Light Duty diesels that don't last as long as a gasoline engine...

 

[Grumpy8811]

GM, who's Olds Diesel was bad enough to actually put Lemon Laws on the books, had a hand in the design of this engine as a joint Venture with VM. GM gave the engine up in it's bankruptcy. If GM's roots isn't clear that it's a light duty disposable diesel... It's history of a Zero (blow the bottom end to scrapmetal) or hero engine is easy enough to find. The signature GM hide a problem of revise the oil specifications is all over it. The engine is discontinued in RAM pickups.
.

little bit disingenuous, don't you think? GM did have a partial share of VM, but sold it 10 years ago. Prior to that it was also mixed in with Detroit Diesel which was then GM and then sold to Penske who then sold a portion of it back to GM... and then I believe DDA thru Penske also had a corporate connection with Daimler Chrysler.
near as I can figure it looks like Stellantis owns the whole thing combined with along the with the FCA stuff prior to that. ( who can figure out corporate parentage after awhile) but blaming GM for it is weak.

I dont know why anyone wants a light duty diesel... not when gasoline powered trucks are a much better choice for most people and of the 3 American brands, the VM Motoi in the Ram is the worst of the bunch...

 

[Tuesdak]

but blaming GM for it is weak

It's actually spot on. GM's arrogance thinking the public wants a disposable diesel among other things is why there isn't an Oldsmobile, Chevy... in every driveway like there used to be. One could look at the recent GM diesels for automotive use and it's clear their attitude hasn't changed. The RAM Cummins and Ford's success with the International forced GM to consult, and listen too, Isuzu for the 6.6L Duramax. The 4 banger "in name only" Duramax was known for breaking wrist pins something the disposable 6.2/6.5 IDI would shatter the piston, bend a rod, and knock holes in the cylinder wall and not break the wrist pin.

How do you screw up a wrist pin: Ask GM!

So biased on GM's success in designing garbage diesel engines, even their recent reputation blemishing turn the engine to scrapmetal failures, it was an easy prediction (I did in fact make the prediction they would blow up before the EcoDiesel engines showed up and started doing so.) that the Joint Venture diesel engine would have typical GM problems baked in. "Today" this arrogance R&D turned loose on their customers shows in their inline 3.0L diesel with coolant valves not working properly. You have to open that engine for a Audi proven failure wet oil pump drive belt before 250K miles.

FWIW GM's 1982 6.2 IDI was so bad of a disposable engine it's still in production TODAY as a punched out 6.5L to supply the military. Thank you taxpayers. (And the few who replace them in civilian vehicles.) GM owned Detroit Diesel at the time the 6.2L IDI was designed. GM ignored their advice for example to use a forged crankshaft. "Like a SNAP!" GM used a cast crank and later had to put an unheard of at the time 100K warranties on it to sell them.

Given HISTORY and recent current events one can easily predict GM automotive diesels or anything diesel GM has a hand in designing has good odds of being towed to a shop by a non-GM diesel.

You can look at history and say if it wasn't for the 5.9L Cummins in a Dodge we would be talking about the International Ford and Mercedes diesels that went the distance as most yellow iron equipment operators expected of diesels.

 

[Grumpy8811]

It's actually spot on. GM's arrogance thinking the public wants a disposable diesel among other things is why there isn't an Oldsmobile, Chevy... in every driveway like there used to be. One could look at the recent GM diesels for automotive use and it's clear their attitude hasn't changed. The RAM Cummins and Ford's success with the International forced GM to consult, and listen too, Isuzu for the 6.6L Duramax.

its worth pointing out GM has a long standing corporate ties to Isuzu..40 years or more, in much the same manner that Stellantis doesn't make a diesel worth a crap on their own,
GM, once divested of Detroit Diesel outsourced engineering for their diesel project.. in that they are not alone..

its not like Dodge or Ram are what makes these current HD trucks popular, it is the Cummins engine along with the Japanese Transmission or the ZF they plan on using. The Cummins the only reason I own a Ram and I live with the Mopar transmission, knowing it is the weak link.. I wouldn't have one otherwise except for the Cummins.

funny thing is while sort of belittling GM, you ignore the fact that they are in a joint venture with Mopar to build all the drive axles on the HD trucks aka New Process which was formerly a GM company that was spun off to become AAM. Apparently not everything they do is crap.

.

 

[Diesel85]

To follow some suite on this. The main reason why I like my EcoD (like what @Grumpy8811) mentioned, is the engine and the transmission are not Stellantis products. Engine is VM (with Stellantis schmatterings on it) and the transmission is ZF (again, with Stellantis schmatterings on it). Same reason if I were to buy a 3500, I would get it with the Cummins and the AISIN.

I prefer vehicles that have different engines and transmissions than the vehicle body maker itself.

Really wish more automakers would go the route of focusing on interior/exterior designs, and leave the powertrain (engine/axles/transmission) up to the qualified manufacturers.

 

[Tuesdak]

unny thing is while sort of belittling GM, you ignore the fact that they are in a joint venture with Mopar to build all the drive axles on the HD trucks aka New Process which was formerly a GM company that was spun off to become AAM. Apparently not everything they do is crap.

I actually had left that part out of my rant. But since you asked nicely...

The "Revise the oil specification" the EcoDiesel went through gives me flashbacks to my last GM LEMON. One of the items GM screwed up was indeed the drive axle on a Trailblazer SS that had a 3/4 ton posi rear end. GM ignored the Eaton clutch specifications to use dyno oil and put in synthetic for their: never change the oil, long life, lower TCO, mandate/vision/plan. GM revised the oil specifications several times for the rear end before the figured out why they were warranting so many rear ends. The Eaton clutch packs would come apart in synthetic oil and sometimes take out the entire rear end. If only the SRT8 Jeep could tow anything it would have been a better choice.

No I don't always trust the OEM for oil specifications and this be one reason to trust but verify.

Dad ran a fleet of over 600 GM pickups in the 90's and early 2000's in the oilfields. The pickups would fall apart around the engine at 250K miles. Mainly 4.3L V6 1/2 tons. Engine failures were more of an exception given at least some care. Thus my expectation is the engine should be able to go 250K without being opened up. GM Diesels except the Duramax have a hard time doing this. Look on the ads for extreme miles on Dodge RAM Cummins that is rare for Ford or GM in the 3/4 or 1 ton arena. Not Un-Possible I said RARE.

This is why I ask the OP, @Katmandu why they want a Light Duty diesel over a gasoline engine that will go the distance on cheaper fuel with less maintenance.

One example from my personal carnage trophy box. This engine still ran with a miss, knock, sludge for oil, and no coolant as it was all in the oil. GM Disposable Light Duty Diesel.

This was a piston. Really! You can see what's left of the oil control ring...

 

[Grumpy8811]

I actually had left that part out of my rant. But since you asked nicely...

The "Revise the oil specification" the EcoDiesel went through gives me flashbacks to my last GM LEMON. One of the items GM screwed up was indeed the drive axle on a Trailblazer SS that had a 3/4 ton posi rear end. GM ignored the Eaton clutch specifications to use dyno oil and put in synthetic for their: never change the oil, long life, lower TCO, mandate/vision/plan. GM revised the oil specifications several times for the rear end before the figured out why they were warranting so many rear ends. The Eaton clutch packs would come apart in synthetic oil and sometimes take out the entire rear end. If only the SRT8 Jeep could tow anything it would have been a better choice.

lets put it this way... they all do that.. same for the ZF's in the Ram... basically tell you it is lubed for life but if you had a ZF manual it would have a service interval

No I don't always trust the OEM for oil specifications and this be one reason to trust but verify.

Dad ran a fleet of over 600 GM pickups in the 90's and early 2000's in the oilfields. The pickups would fall apart around the engine at 250K miles. Mainly 4.3L V6 1/2 tons. Engine failures were more of an exception given at least some care. Thus my expectation is the engine should be able to go 250K without being opened up. GM Diesels except the Duramax have a hard time doing this. Look on the ads for extreme miles on Dodge RAM Cummins that is rare for Ford or GM in the 3/4 or 1 ton arena. Not Un-Possible I said RARE.

yeah, well no sense in comparing a 5.7 GM light duty diesel or the 6.2/6.5 to the Cummins.. even the price point was far different when originally sold

This is why I ask the OP, @Katmandu why they want a Light Duty diesel over a gasoline engine that will go the distance on cheaper fuel with less maintenance.

One example from my personal carnage trophy box. This engine still ran with a miss, knock, sludge for oil, and no coolant as it was all in the oil. GM Disposable Light Duty Diesel.

I don't know why anyone buys a light duty diesel in a 1500 series pickup truck. my basic thought on diesels in 1500 series pickup trucks is no one will ever save any money owning a diesel so unless they can rationalize it from the towing performance aspect ( which goes out the payload tow rating window in a light duty 1500 series pickup anyway) it is a total waste of effort and money. If I buy another HD truck it will probably be an F350 with the 7.3 gas and a 430 rear end.. I had a 4.3 V6 in my 93 GMC pickup.. I gave it to someone at the 277k mile point. it was pretty much original... it was tired at that point... but what other gasser isn't..

View attachment 142387

 

[Diesel85]

Some folks like diesel or have other reasons for diesel.

Like for example, I own a few other pieces of diesel equipment that I use on a regular basis. I rarely use gasoline, except in the weed wacker, chainsaw, and push lawn mower.

I am trying to standardize on one fuel for my homestead and the best and most safe fuel for that is diesel.

In fact, this past month I just got a 275 gallon outdoor diesel fuel tank from my local fuel distributor with a contract. As I am using more and more diesel fuel. More for convenience.

Same can be argued for EVs. Some want to be electric everything to get rid of gas powered machinery.

I am grateful that small diesels are still available.

Personally, I would love to get a new Cummins and keep my EcoD and I might do that depending on how much I get on trade on my EcoD. I do have a gas F150 (rarely used now) and a mint Dakota as a whip. If I were to keep the EcoD, I'd likely sell the F150. But I got two years to decide that.

 

[Katmandu]

GM, who's Olds Diesel was bad enough to actually put Lemon Laws on the books, had a hand in the design of this engine as a joint Venture with VM. GM gave the engine up in it's bankruptcy. If GM's roots isn't clear that it's a light duty disposable diesel... It's history of a Zero (blow the bottom end to scrapmetal) or hero engine is easy enough to find. The signature GM hide a problem of revise the oil specifications is all over it. The engine is discontinued in RAM pickups.

The Ecodiesel uses the worst injection pump ever made: the failure prone CP4. It's failure trashes the entire fuel system: expensive injectors included. GM, RAM, and Ford (and other OEM's) face class action lawsuits over the CP4 grenade. RAM Cummins recalled the CP4 injection pumps (twice) for something better that's not a CP4, more than 100% of them will be replaced as several failed in warranty and were done in the first CP4 recall. No Not The Ecodiesel: it still suffers with a CP4. Even GM with their horrible diesel attitude abandoned the CP4!

Next practical question is how much does diesel fuel cost in your area? Diesel costs more than regular gasoline here eating any savings. Fuel filters and extra engine oil eat away at TCO savings from MPG. Although premium gasoline, 91 octane, costs more than diesel here almost no one compares this.

All diesel engine appear to suffer a fact that any problem becomes catastrophic. Emissions systems failure or expensive injector failure = haul out the scrap metal and drop in a new engine.

Emissions equipment for diesels are expensive and some parts are not covered by MOPAR Extended warranty.

You want this engine over a 5.7L Hemi why again?

Or why don't you step up to a proven "REAL DIESEL" in a 2500+ RAM pickup with a 5.9L or 6.7L Cummins? Vs. the Disposable Light Duty diesels that don't last as long as a gasoline engine...

I owned a Holy Grail truck 15 years ago. Biggest regret in my life was getting rid of it. Long story.... I'll tell about someday when I get the time.

In the meantime, I MAY actually been in the market for another Cummins. Trying to figure out Finances and moving. I just Retired and 1st SS check due this Wednesday. Could have a decent chunk (Finally...) to buy another truck out right. Saw that Eco at a local dealer the other day. Think I'll pass on it. Anyways where can I find a nice 2nd Gen Club Cab. Would love another Manual trans,12 valve ! I saw blue one on a forum couple weeks ago, now I can't find it.

Why aren't there more Trucks For Sale in the forums on this site ?

 

[Katmandu]

I owned a Holy Grail truck 15 years ago. Biggest regret in my life was getting rid of it. Long story.... I'll tell about someday when I get the time.

In the meantime, I MAY actually been in the market for another Cummins. Trying to figure out Finances and moving. I just Retired and 1st SS check due this Wednesday. Could have a decent chunk (Finally...) to buy another truck out right. Saw that Eco at a local dealer the other day. Think I'll pass on it. Anyways where can I find a nice 2nd Gen Club Cab. Would love another Manual trans,12 valve ! I saw blue one on a forum couple weeks ago, now I can't find it.

Why aren't there more Trucks For Sale in the forums on this site ?

Here's pics of my Holy Grail truck. Love to buy it back. Sold it to guy from Columbus, Ohio for $9000. That was 15 years ago.

https://flic.kr/s/aHsjP7Nc5y

Here's a walk around video I shot to Sell it.

 

[Diesel85]

I owned a Holy Grail truck 15 years ago. Biggest regret in my life was getting rid of it. Long story.... I'll tell about someday when I get the time.

In the meantime, I MAY actually been in the market for another Cummins. Trying to figure out Finances and moving. I just Retired and 1st SS check due this Wednesday. Could have a decent chunk (Finally...) to buy another truck out right. Saw that Eco at a local dealer the other day. Think I'll pass on it. Anyways where can I find a nice 2nd Gen Club Cab. Would love another Manual trans,12 valve ! I saw blue one on a forum couple weeks ago, now I can't find it.

Why aren't there more Trucks For Sale in the forums on this site ?

Personally, I would stick with a Cummins if you are on SS. In fact, I wouldn't recommend anything else -- not even a sedan or passenger car.

An EcoD without a warranty (or unless you got deep pockets), isn't something I'd venture to be a "holy grail" truck. Don't get me wrong, it's a comfortable vehicle to drive and fun to operate, but to repair it due to even simple problems is going to get expensive and very few want to work on this platform. Fun fact is this here EcoD actually was used in the Maserati Ghibli. So think of it as a luxury sports-car class engine in a light duty truck.

If it wasn't for one to fall into my lap for a very reasonable price and to get a warranty on it, I was going to make a pass on it even then. But I wanted to try one for a few years, and said, WTH, why not. Glad I did.

Heck, I've spent more on vacations than I will keeping this truck for 3-4 years before trading it. To me, it's like a little vacation each time I drive it.

But if I was living paycheck to paycheck, or on SS/fixed income, no way. I'd want something I wouldn't mind keeping even after the warranty expires. Even a modern RAM Cummins would fit the bill.

Also, parts availability for the EcoD can and will be extremely spotty due to many reasons. Versus the Cummins, where you'll be able to get parts 20 years from now. I could see Stellantis "killing off" the EcoD quicker if they stopped selling crucial parts for it here in the next few years. Very likely. Like I mentioned in the first post or two, not many aftermarket folks are backing the EcoD too.

 

[Katmandu]

But if I was living paycheck to paycheck, or on SS/fixed income, no way. I'd want something I wouldn't mind keeping even after the warranty expires. Even a modern RAM Cummins would fit the bill.

Also, parts availability for the EcoD can and will be extremely spotty due to many reasons. Versus the Cummins, where you'll be able to get parts 20 years from now. I could see Stellantis "killing off" the EcoD quicker if they stopped selling crucial parts for it here in the next few years. Very likely. Like I mentioned in the first post or two, not many aftermarket folks are backing the EcoD too.[/QUOTE]I understand. Fortunately for me, I have (2) other Pensions.. (Retired Military and Retired VA employee) to go with my SS. Not wealthy but I'll be fine. Still don't want a money pit. Who does ?

I had my eye for a couple years now on a local 2002 Ram with Cummins and a MANUAL transmission, good shape for $7000. I could never convince the boss to get rid of my DD to get it. Unfortunately, now that I'm Retired and can afford it, I found out yesterday the owner moved. Not sure yet if I can find him.

I'm really wanting a manual trans Cummins. Hard to find good ones.

 

[Diesel85]

Sounds like a good choice.

It's hard finding these older trucks that haven't had:

1. Hard abuse from commercial activities or teenagers using one as a burnout machine.
2. People that "think" they know what tuning a diesel is.
3. Weird wiring and cheap junk modified onto the vehicle.
4. Salt belt truck.

There was a Youtuber that I've been watching over the years, started as your typical "diesel" teenager, now has grown up and admitted to #1, #2, and #3 and has "grown up".

Personally, if I wanted to get one of those older trucks, I'd spend a few bucks to have a reputable diesel mechanic look at it before buying it. Not like they will necessary find everything or notice something weird, but it can't hurt.