What temp does WVO solidify?

[DHayden]

As you may have read in my other thread I am planning on making some bio, I have a good source and I am trying to figure out what I need and what to expect so I'm ready to start collecting with no problems.

I am wondering at what temp WVO solidifies? I assume it depends on how much fat is in it, I looked at the WVO I will be collecting and it was solidified with an outside temp of about 60 degree's. I'm wondering if it will stay liquid in a black metal drum especially in the heat of the summer or will some fat still solidify at the top?

I'm just curious because I want to be prepared for either being able to pump it out into another container in my truck or if I am going to have to take the whole barrel and leave an empty one.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Yes it greatly depends on the animal fat content. . . the more there is the higher the "melting" temperature. Generally (based on the stuff I get) what is fairly solid at 60 is mostly (or all) liquid by 90-100 degrees.

If the oil from this source is solid all the time you might want to find another source to use as well which would hopefully have more liquid stuff. That way you can use a higher percentage of blended fuel in your tank.

My source's WVO varies from all liquid at cold temps (ie ambient 30s-50s) to stuff so solid you can scoop it with a spoon. I label these buckets "crisco" and put them to the side for use in the summer. The stuff that isn't so hard I mix 50/50 with liquid oil. What I do is heat the solid stuff up to at least 200-220F, mix the DSE chemicals with it and let it "cook" awhile, then mix it with the clear oil and bring the temp back to 200 for a short time. Then I filter it, put it in my tank then go top off with gas and diesel. Right now the fuel I have in my tank is from stuff with a lot of fat. I have a fuel heater in my system that helps, but temps have been consistently in the mid 50s to around 60 for the past month so I've been fine with some heavier stuff.

Vaughn

 

[DHayden]

Thanks Vaughn, the source is from a popeyes chicken and looks pretty clean. I have read that kfc is one of the better sources, i would imagine popeyes would be close to the same.

 

[Crunch]

then I filter it, put it in my tank then go top off with gas and diesel.

Vaughn, you aren't seriously adding gasoline to your tank, are you? In the "63 Cetane" thread I posted a link to an old TDR issue. I posted the part about not gaining anything significant with cetanes over 50. But the article was specifically about mixing gasoline and diesel fuels. If you are interested, here is the link along with some very scary statements regarding injector failure:

Mixing Gasoline With Diesel

The light distillates that gasolines are made from have a natural high-octane index. The middle distillates that diesel fuels come from have a high cetane index. The octane and cetane indexes are INVERSE scales. A fuel that has a high octane number has a low cetane number, and a high cetane fuel has a low octane number. Anything with a high octane rating will retard diesel fuel’s ability to ignite. That’s why each fuel has developed along with different types of engine designs and fuel delivery systems. Gasoline mixed in diesel fuel will inhibit combustion in a diesel engine and diesel fuel mixed in gasoline will ignite too soon in a gasoline engine.



A lot of old-time mechanics added some gasoline to diesel to supposedly clean the carbon deposits out of the cylinders. I have never read anything that said it worked. Gasoline will make the fuel burn hotter, and hotter burning fuels burn cleaner. That’s probably where the theory got started. In the older diesel engines that belched lots of black smoke even when properly tuned, the result of adding gasoline was probably more white smoke instead of black. This might lead one to believe the engine was running cleaner. Maybe so, probably not. Here’s what happens.



Gasoline will raise the combustion temperature. This might or might not reduce carbon deposits in the cylinder. This also might or might not overheat the injector nozzle enough to cause coking on the nozzle. That’s a clogged injector tip in layman’s terms. The fuel being injected is the only thing that cools the nozzle. Diesel fuel has a lower combustion temperature than gasoline. The fuel injectors depend on the fuel burning at the correct rate and temperature for a long life. If the combustion temperature is raised long enough, the gums and varnishes in gasoline will start to cook right in the fuel injector and turn into carbon. These microscopic carbon particles will abrade the nozzle. High combustion temperatures alone will shorten fuel injector life, gasoline makes the problem worse.​

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Yes Crunch I do, have been for quite some time. I did read that TDR article once.

During the winter I was averaging 4. 5 gallons of gas per tank of fuel (I have the smaller tank, 31 gallons I think). The most I did was just under 6 gallons when it was pretty cold (which is almost 20% gas). I experimented with different amounts and in colder weather it ran a lot better with a higher ratio. Now that it's around 60 I'm putting 2. 5 to 3 gallons per tank. At this point I'd say I've burned ~150 gallons of gas in the '98 in the last few months. Runs smooth and has good power, no effect on EGTs. Come summer weather I'd drop down to 1 gallon or less per tank.

CJ Hall has run lots of gasoline through both of his common rail trucks too with no ill effects so far. Check the long DSE thread, he pulled his injectors on the '04 once to look at them & they were fine.

Vaughn

 

[Crunch]

CJ Hall has run lots of gasoline through both of his common rail trucks too with no ill effects so far. Check the long DSE thread, he pulled his injectors on the '04 once to look at them & they were fine.

Injectors are my main concern. There are a lot of ways to kill an injector, and aren't they still about $2K+installation for a set? I would have to be assured of a phenomenal performance increase before I would risk that. But I am leery of additives in general (but I confess to using PS and occasionally Howe's). I grew up hearing that STP destroys engines and the only thing you should put in the fuel tank is the proper fuel. I'm one of those people that buy their fuel at the same place, same pump whenever possible. It may be a pipe dream, or maybe an injector dream but I'm hoping to get at least 350,000 miles out of them. I'd also like to add some HP to the engine, but with engine systems being so complex these days, with tight tolerances, fancy go-to-meetin' electronics and precision parts run by computers I am hesitant to disrupt the natural flow of the system. I guess I am either wise, too cautious or a chump the industry sees as a useful idiot. The universal solution to all this would be for Dodge to offer a deal we can't refuse: Sell the Ram CTD in sets of two for the cost of 1. 5 trucks. That way we have one to keep stock and one to experiment on with the fuels, and the horse power and the climbing on rocks.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Crunch, if I had a new or newer expensive truck I'd be pretty hesitant to put any gas in my truck. I wasn't too comfortable with it to begin with until I saw CJ wasn't seeing any obvious ill effects from doing so. Luckily the 12-valve is quite forgiving tanks to the venerable P7100 but still don't want to abuse it.

One thing I'm doing in the next couple of weeks is change out my 300 injectors for some 215s, I'll see what they look like and will take some pics, so stay tuned

Vaughn

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Vaughn, you aren't seriously adding gasoline to your tank, are you? In the "63 Cetane" thread I posted a link to an old TDR issue. I posted the part about not gaining anything significant with cetanes over 50. But the article was specifically about mixing gasoline and diesel fuels. If you are interested, here is the link along with some very scary statements regarding injector failure: . . .

I started changing injectors tonight & hoped they'd come out looking better than they did. I have quite a bit of crusty accumulation on the tips of the 4-hole Bosch 300 injectors I've been running about 25,000 miles. Removing it requires a stiff wire brush or scraping with a knife, no soft brass brush will remove it.



12-valve injectors (in my experience) build up deposits far worse than 24V engines (for whatever reason) despite religious use of additives (which helps keep 24V injector tips nice and clean from what I've seen).



The deposits on the original set of injectors on this truck, when removed at 140,000 miles, were worse than these injectors, but the deposits were softer and more easily removed.



During the last 25k miles I've done a lot of winter, short-trip driving and a number of starts in rather cold weather not plugged in (in the 30s). So that probably contributed to some of the deposit activity.



The injectors I'm putting in are unmodified stock 215s. With warmer weather now I won't be using as much gas, and come fall I'll pull these and inspect them to see how they compare. Since I use about double the amount of diesel fuel additive as normally used for straight diesel I will keep the same ratio.



My hope is the deposits mostly accumulated on the injector tips and not the piston lands & rings. My feeling is I'll be OK. On my '96, which I also burned a fair amount of veggie with some gas mixed in, had similar deposits on the injectors (although not as much since I didn't burn nearly as much gas). But when I pulled the head the piston tops were nice and clean, nothing more than a thin soot layer.



I tried taking pics, but the camera refused to focus right. Here's my best attempt.



Vaughn

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I started changing injectors tonight & hoped they'd come out looking better than they did. I have quite a bit of crusty accumulation on the tips of the 4-hole Bosch 300 injectors I've been running about 25,000 miles. Removing it requires a stiff wire brush or scraping with a knife, no soft brass brush will remove it. Vaughn

Looks like maybe the chickens came home to roost, eh Vaughn? :-laf:-laf

If the combustion temperature is raised long enough, the gums and varnishes in gasoline will start to cook right in the fuel injector and turn into carbon. These microscopic carbon particles will abrade the nozzle. High combustion temperatures alone will shorten fuel injector life, gasoline makes the problem worse.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Could be Gary. . . it would be interesting to have the injectors disassembled and looked at under a microscope.

 

[Crunch]

I started changing injectors tonight & hoped they'd come out looking better than they did. I have quite a bit of crusty accumulation on the tips of the 4-hole Bosch 300 injectors I've been running about 25,000 miles. Removing it requires a stiff wire brush or scraping with a knife, no soft brass brush will remove it.

Sorry to hear that, Vaughn. But now the big question. Do you attribute the accumulation to the gasoline, bio-diesel, fuel additives or something else?

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

I'm thinking mostly the gas Crunch . . . planning on using less of it for the next few months then will check injectors in the fall. I just got some cetane improver (not an additive with cetane improver but PURE cetane improver from Amalgamated) which CJ Hall says helps reduce viscosity of the veg oil and helps with combustion (should counter the octane in gas) for hopefully a cleaner burn. Although my '98 burned pretty clean with the 300 injectors, I didn't get any haze and could accelerate pretty hard with the #10 plate & 3K GSK with no smoke.

If the worst thing that happens is injector problems I'm not going to worry too much, the 300s were cheap and so were the 215s I just put in. I noticed NO deterioration in driving quality, smoothness, power or MPG at the time I removed the injectors. . . truck was running darned good. And hardly any noticeable change by installing the 215s.

 

[Crunch]

I'm thinking mostly the gas Crunch . . . planning on using less of it for the next few months then will check injectors in the fall.

That surprises me, Vaughn. I would have thought once bitten, twice shy in this case.

If the worst thing that happens is injector problems I'm not going to worry too much, the 300s were cheap and so were the 215s I just put in.

Says the man whose not afraid to crack into a 20,000psi common rail...



I'm pretty mechanical minded, but I know I wouldn't try it. What's cheap for injectors these days, if you install them yourself?

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

What's cheap for injectors these days, if you install them yourself?

The 300s were free, and paid $120 for the 215s

Did spend about $36 on the 215s to have them pop tested and get the copper gaskets & all.